Heritage Live Auction -- Black Swamp debacle

[keithsky]

I would think they went with Heritage because of reputation they have and how big and experienced they are and if they told me I could get close to a million for these cards and only got 250,000 I think I would be a little disappointed even though it was money i didn't have. Would have made me think I should have gone elswhere. I would have trusted there knowledge of the market when they told me I could get a million. Always factors that dictate what something will sell for but the gap between a million and 250 is not even close. Still a nice chunk of money they never had

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I'm now looking at the auction pages of the Black Swamp cards and unless this is an error of some sort, those cards are already up for sale again. Each auction has a "Make Offer to the Owner" option. Then is states:

You now have the opportunity to acquire very rare items that may not be auctioned again for some time by making an anonymous offer that will make the owner sell. The owner of this item has indicated that they are entertaining offers on this item.

Could this mean Heritage themselves won the cards and are now selling them again? Something stinks here or am I missing something? If these items are up for sale, then it appears the winners weren't very serious about owning the cards.

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7057&lotNo=80001

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7057&lotNo=80002

[ullmandds]

ha ha...I'm a little slow this morning...too many celebratory gin and tonics last night!!!!

[Mrc32]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I'm now looking at the auction pages of the Black Swamp cards and unless this is an error of some sort, those cards are already up for sale again. Each auction has a "Make Offer to the Owner" option. Then is states:

You now have the opportunity to acquire very rare items that may not be auctioned again for some time by making an anonymous offer that will make the owner sell. The owner of this item has indicated that they are entertaining offers on this item.

Could this mean Heritage themselves won the cards and are now selling them again? Something stinks here or am I missing something? If these items are up for sale, then it appears the winners weren't very serious about owning the cards.

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7057&lotNo=80001

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7057&lotNo=80002

Well, given what I read in that other thread about Heritage that seems possible.

The consignors must be disappointed. I think this entire thing seems to have benefited Heritage much more than the consignors.

Had they spaced these out over time they could have gotten more money IMHO.

But there is no denying that anytime you take a set that is collected by probably 100-200 people and dump a ton more material on the market prices will be tough to keep high.

[David R]

I don't think any seller of baseball cards has a duty to disclose all the other cards he or she has and the grades or condition when selling. As long as there are no untruthful statements made - like this is the only high grade example - then there is no fraud.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by David R

I don't think any seller of baseball cards has a duty to disclose all the other cards he or she has and the grades or condition when selling. As long as there are no untruthful statements made - like this is the only high grade example - then there is no fraud.

in agreement, when the doyle error came out, the first guy to find it didnt tell everyone to make it fair for everyone in the hobby to sell them to him at a fair price, he tried to buy up other doyles at the regular price. was that dishonest? no, he used info he had to his own betterment.

heritage dropped the ball on this one, fuuuuumble!

to do it this way,they would have been better off to burn all the wagner's except for the one graded 10, and put a million dollar price tag on it. what is the difference between that, and only disclosing the 10 wagner, putting a million dollar price tag on it, until it sells, then put out a 9 wagner, etc, then another 9, the prices will be less for each subsequent one, but the buyer has paid for FOB, (first on block).

something tells me if any auction house would have made the find themselves and owned it themselves, it would have been sold differently because in this instance the auction house looked out for the buyers as much as the sellers by disclosing the pop number and grades of all the cards beforehand, but an auction house that owned the cards outright, would have only looked out for one entity, THEMSELVES, which is fine, but let's do the same thing for the consignor then in this instance that they would have done for themselves. heritage or not, any auction house would have used the cards to their own advantage had they owned them outright.

[calvindog]

I understand why the "Black Swamp Find" was publicized: to get publicity for this auction and Heritage. But can anyone say with a straight face that if Heritage had simply announced that in its upcoming live auction that they would have a Wagner 10 and a Cobb 9 in it they both wouldn't have gone for well more than 100K apiece -- without Heritage being in every newspaper in the country? It's not like news of these cards wouldn't have made the rounds to every collector in the hobby in a minute flat. I just can't see the logic in how this was handled except to think that Heritage's interests and handling of the auction were inconsistent with the consigners' interests and bottom line.

[travrosty]

these multiple wagners at very high grade were so far better than any previous ones, that it made little difference to sell them slowly, or fast, because anyone who wants one, now knows they exist in these quantity, and they can't get any anywhere else, but they know the seller is going to sell, so they will just wait for the next auction and pick up a 9, or the next auction, next, etc.

so flooding the market all at once, or "flooding" it slowly over a period of a year or two isn't going to make much of a difference.

since the family had the market cornered on these high grade wagners, they should have put a high price on the 10, and refuse to sell any 9's until the 10 sells first at their price, then anyone that wants a high grade wagner for that set, can't get one unless they sell for the familys price. There would be no where else to go, they had a bottleneck but they blew it. an opportunity squandered on a terrific chance to cash in on a cornered market. but heritage knows what they are doing. fail.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by David R

I don't think any seller of baseball cards has a duty to disclose all the other cards he or she has and the grades or condition when selling. As long as there are no untruthful statements made - like this is the only high grade example - then there is no fraud.

How is "this is the only high grade example" truthful here? There were 700 high grade examples found. They could've stretched the truth by saying "This is the only highly graded example" if they only graded one in the find. Thankfully, since they weren't "in" the hobby, the odds of them being scumbags was lower then we're used too.

[David R]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

How is "this is the only high grade example" truthful here? There were 700 high grade examples found. They could've stretched the truth by saying "This is the only highly graded example" if they only graded one in the find. Thankfully, since they weren't "in" the hobby, the odds of them being scumbags was lower then we're used too.

"this is the only highly graded example" was my example of an affirmative statement that would be untruthful when selling these cards and could be considered fraudulent. But if the seller doesn't make any untruthful statements about the cards and doesn't answer any questions untruthfully, there is absolutely no affirmative duty to disclose to a buyer that you have a lot of other high grade examples of the card you are selling.

We are talking about an arms length transaction between two third parties. There is no special relationship between the buyer and seller that would give rise to any affirmative duties of disclosure as far as I am aware.

[botn]

And if Heritage, with the consignors' permission, had not disclosed the size of the find and not graded all the cards at once, there would have been a thread attacking them for fraud and misrepresentation. Seems like Heritage should have just told the consignors to take their crumby cards elsewhere. Boy, an auction house cannot win with Jeff around. Now cards cards selling for "too little" is a problem. YIKES!!!

I also do not think the printed estimates for the 3 lots totaled 1 million. Don't have the catalog any longer. I recall the Wagner stated 200K and up. That said I thought the cards would sell for more, not that they underperformed. The E98s were not the only items which did not command top dollar last night.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by botn

And if Heritage, with the consignors' permission, had not disclosed the size of the find and not graded all the cards at once, there would have been a thread attacking them for fraud and misrepresentation. Seems like Heritage should have just told the consignors to take their crumby cards elsewhere. Boy, an auction house cannot win with Jeff around. Now cards cards selling for "too little" is a problem. YIKES!!!

I also do not think the printed estimates for the 3 lots totaled 1 million. Don't have the catalog any longer. I recall the Wagner stated 200K and up. That said I thought the cards would sell for more, not that they underperformed. The E98s were not the only items which did not command top dollar last night.

As I said, as long as a material misrepresentation wasn't made Heritage would be fine. This is more of a sales strategy issue than an ethical one obviously. And I agree the auction as a whole didn't do well. I suspect the same of Legendary's auction.

[insidethewrapper]

The pre-auction estimate I saw was $ 200k for the Wagner, not $ 1million. They only auctioned off I think 37 cards last night . They will be auctioning the others over a period I believe of a couple of years, many 9's of Cobb etc

They still have 100's of cards to auction off and they will in the end be in the millions range, already over 1/2 million with just 37 cards.

[Matthew H]

Wow... There's still 670 more cards, roughly the same condition as the 28 that sold last night. Herritage estimate was waaayyy high, even if they had only found one set IMO. You're talking 37k per card and a couple were in fair condition. Compare this set to the pirate set that sold. I can't even imagine this set being worth 1/4 that. It's just condition rarity and hype. I'm sure Leon's right, I'm sure the family is super happy. Don't forget they're regular people. They probably still can't believe some rich guy is willing to pay so much for something grandpa forgot to throw away 100 years ago.

[Wymers Auction]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I'm now looking at the auction pages of the Black Swamp cards and unless this is an error of some sort, those cards are already up for sale again. Each auction has a "Make Offer to the Owner" option. Then is states:

You now have the opportunity to acquire very rare items that may not be auctioned again for some time by making an anonymous offer that will make the owner sell. The owner of this item has indicated that they are entertaining offers on this item.

Could this mean Heritage themselves won the cards and are now selling them again? Something stinks here or am I missing something? If these items are up for sale, then it appears the winners weren't very serious about owning the cards.

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7057&lotNo=80001

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7057&lotNo=80002

Correct me if I am wrong, but Heritage is offering this on every past lot they have ever sold. They become the messenger between you and the buyer to negotiate a sale on anything sold in the past. This is not exclusive to the Black Swamp find. It in no way means Heritage owns the cards it would be more of an agent situation between the buyer and seller.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

Correct me if I am wrong, but Heritage is offering this on every past lot they have ever sold. They become the messenger between you and the buyer to negotiate a sale on anything sold in the past. This is not exclusive to the Black Swamp find. It in no way means Heritage owns the cards it would be more of an agent situation between the buyer and seller.

OK. I now see that they do it on more then those two auctions, but they do bid on their own auctions, so its still possible they are the winners any of those auctions.