Heritage Live Auction -- Black Swamp debacle

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

The family was very happy when the live bidding opened? What does that mean? Were they very happy when the live bidding closed after being told that the $1 million estimate was 760K too high?

But if the family insisted upon releasing the full extent of the find instead of selling the cards a bit at the time then the fault lies with them -- assuming they were given good advice.

It means they were happy with where the prices were when the Live bidding opened. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

[barrysloate]

If somebody in the hobby found these they would have done this much differently. This family was outside the hobby and likely didn't understand the nuances the way we would.

That said, if the cards went for 25% of their estimated value then clearly something didn't work out. The family may be happy because they have nothing into them and didn't even know they had them until a few months ago. I guess there are going to be some bargains down the road.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

If somebody in the hobby found these they would have done this much differently.

If cows shi* butter we wouldn't have to churn.

If my uncle had boobs he would be my aunt.

[sportscardpete]

Originally Posted by Leon

If cows shi* butter we wouldn't have to churn.

If my uncle had boobs he would be my aunt.

LOL!


It really is hard to complain about finding cards in an attic and walking away with $250,000..

The shrewd move would have been to sell these suckers periodically. I understand it's in the best interest of the hobby not to "sneak" in these cards, but as an auction house your best interest should always be getting the best possible (legal) price.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by sportscardpete

LOL!


It really is hard to complain about finding cards in an attic and walking away with $250,000..

The shrewd move would have been to sell these suckers periodically. I understand it's in the best interest of the hobby not to "sneak" in these cards, but as an auction house your best interest should always be getting the best possible (legal) price.

To me, the shrewd move is to give the consignor all possible information and then do as they ask, within your boundaries. I think most auctioneers would agree. Otherwise, the consignor can take their wares elsewhere.

[jimross]

I feel sorry to the owner's family if they planned to use the money for college funds of their grandkids.... now the funds are only enough to buy a few stationaries from Walmart til they graduate from high school.

[Wymers Auction]

Originally Posted by Leon

To me, the shrewd move is to give the consignor all possible information and then do as they ask, within your boundaries. I think most auctioneers would agree. Otherwise, the consignor can take their wares elsewhere.

Great point Leon the consignor is in charge as an auctioneer you can only advise.

[MVSNYC]

Not to get off topic, but how about some of the other ridiculous prices? Ruth ball $388k, Ruth bat $388k, 1912 Sox Trophy $239k, 69/70 Topps basketball set $209k, Ruth signed certificate $101k, Ali trunks, Cap Anson bat, etc, etc...all six figure items. Incredible prices. The hobby looks very strong to me.

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by Leon

If cows shi* butter we wouldn't have to churn.

If my uncle had boobs he would be my aunt.

Good thinking Leon!

WTT: 1 butter shi**ing cow for E98 Wagner. Condition not important (in regards to the cow, not the Wagner)...

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

If somebody in the hobby found these they would have done this much differently. This family was outside the hobby and likely didn't understand the nuances the way we would.

That said, if the cards went for 25% of their estimated value then clearly something didn't work out. The family may be happy because they have nothing into them and didn't even know they had them until a few months ago. I guess there are going to be some bargains down the road.

No one can possibly believe this family is happy after last night.

[T206Collector]

It would have been fraudulent not to disclose the material fact of other high grade E98s in their possession when trying to sell purportedly "low pop" cards.

My guess is they were wary of the indictments of the Legendary principals, and just wanted to make sure they weren't going to stand in front of a federal jury.

[ullmandds]

Really? So if they only had 1 or 2 graded...the pop would still be very low...probably unique. Technically they don't know how the others will eventually grade. This would be fraudulent?

Does this have anything to do with that whole "prudent" man stuff?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Really? So if they only had 1 or 2 graded...the pop would still be very low...probably unique. Technically they don't know how the others will eventually grade. This would be fraudulent?

Does this have anything to do with that whole "prudent" man stuff?

My smiley face was intended to connote sarcasm. Maybe I should've used the winky eye!

[keithsky]

I would think they went with Heritage because of reputation they have and how big and experienced they are and if they told me I could get close to a million for these cards and only got 250,000 I think I would be a little disappointed even though it was money i didn't have. Would have made me think I should have gone elswhere. I would have trusted there knowledge of the market when they told me I could get a million. Always factors that dictate what something will sell for but the gap between a million and 250 is not even close. Still a nice chunk of money they never had

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I'm now looking at the auction pages of the Black Swamp cards and unless this is an error of some sort, those cards are already up for sale again. Each auction has a "Make Offer to the Owner" option. Then is states:

You now have the opportunity to acquire very rare items that may not be auctioned again for some time by making an anonymous offer that will make the owner sell. The owner of this item has indicated that they are entertaining offers on this item.

Could this mean Heritage themselves won the cards and are now selling them again? Something stinks here or am I missing something? If these items are up for sale, then it appears the winners weren't very serious about owning the cards.

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7057&lotNo=80001

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7057&lotNo=80002

[ullmandds]

ha ha...I'm a little slow this morning...too many celebratory gin and tonics last night!!!!

[Mrc32]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I'm now looking at the auction pages of the Black Swamp cards and unless this is an error of some sort, those cards are already up for sale again. Each auction has a "Make Offer to the Owner" option. Then is states:

You now have the opportunity to acquire very rare items that may not be auctioned again for some time by making an anonymous offer that will make the owner sell. The owner of this item has indicated that they are entertaining offers on this item.

Could this mean Heritage themselves won the cards and are now selling them again? Something stinks here or am I missing something? If these items are up for sale, then it appears the winners weren't very serious about owning the cards.

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7057&lotNo=80001

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7057&lotNo=80002

Well, given what I read in that other thread about Heritage that seems possible.

The consignors must be disappointed. I think this entire thing seems to have benefited Heritage much more than the consignors.

Had they spaced these out over time they could have gotten more money IMHO.

But there is no denying that anytime you take a set that is collected by probably 100-200 people and dump a ton more material on the market prices will be tough to keep high.

[Wymers Auction]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I'm now looking at the auction pages of the Black Swamp cards and unless this is an error of some sort, those cards are already up for sale again. Each auction has a "Make Offer to the Owner" option. Then is states:

You now have the opportunity to acquire very rare items that may not be auctioned again for some time by making an anonymous offer that will make the owner sell. The owner of this item has indicated that they are entertaining offers on this item.

Could this mean Heritage themselves won the cards and are now selling them again? Something stinks here or am I missing something? If these items are up for sale, then it appears the winners weren't very serious about owning the cards.

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7057&lotNo=80001

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7057&lotNo=80002

Correct me if I am wrong, but Heritage is offering this on every past lot they have ever sold. They become the messenger between you and the buyer to negotiate a sale on anything sold in the past. This is not exclusive to the Black Swamp find. It in no way means Heritage owns the cards it would be more of an agent situation between the buyer and seller.

[brianp-beme]

The estimate I saw in the paper (a national press release) was that the lots had an estimate of about $500,000 total, and that the bidding on these lots reached $566,000. One million seems an out of line estimate to me. In the long run I think the family did good, as long as they time the release of future lots/singles in a way that will maintain interest in this incredible find.

Brian

[E93]

I think they did it the right way. It was honest. For what it is worth, the three lots sold for about a half a million. The Wagner was $238k with juice, the set was over $280k with juice, and the other lot went for over 40k with juice. Those numbers were about what I expected given what is lined up behind them. Still impressive! The other factor is Heritage got a ton of press due to the enormity of the find which would not have happened if they slowly leaked them. It is hard to know how that will impact all this in the short and long term. The bottom line in my book is that it was the honest way to do it.
JimB

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by E93

I think they did it the right way. It was honest. For what it is worth, the three lots sold for about a half a million. The Wagner was $238k with juice, the set was over $280k with juice, and the other lot went for over 40k with juice. Those numbers were about what I expected given what is lined up behind them. Still impressive! The other factor is Heritage got a ton of press due to the enormity of the find which would not have happened if they slowly leaked them. It is hard to know how that will impact all this in the short and long term. The bottom line in my book is that it was the honest way to do it.
JimB

Easy for you to say -- you weren't told the cards would fetch $3 million. And it wouldn't have been dishonest to sell them slower without getting them all graded at once -- unless a material misrepresentation was made.

[jimross]

"fraudulent not to disclose the material fact of other high grade E98s in their possession when trying to sell purportedly "low pop" cards."???

That's a fraudulent act??? yeah right! Come on!!!!

If u have three Honus Wagner signed t206 and want to sell one, I am 100% certain u wouldn't want to tell people u have two more to sell later.

[jimross]

I talked to a HA personnel last night, he said they have been getting low ball offers for those "lesser" grade Black Swamp find cards after the auction. One offer was $5k for a PSA-9 Wagner and the consignor actually accepted the offer after the auction ends last nite. I guess the consignor learnt his lesson and try to dump those cards to the market before they crash become trash.

I don't think the consignor family would waste their time for those endless interviews if they know they would get ~$1M for the whole collection.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by jimross

I talked to a HA personnel last night, he said they have been getting low ball offers for those "lesser" grade Black Swamp find cards after the auction. One offer was $5k for a PSA-9 Wagner and the consignor actually accepted the offer after the auction ends last nite. I guess the consignor learnt his lesson and try to dump those cards to the market before they crash become trash.

I don't think the consignor family would waste their time for those endless interviews if they know they would get ~$1M for the whole collection.

I'm going to have to disbelieve this statement for now, since you didnt accidentally rip the back of your jeans off reaching for your wallet when you heard 5k. The "gem mint" version just sold for 40x that number.

Also, Heritage is too money grubby (signed, Matt Hall) to accept that kind of low ball offer. They could get more then that on eBay.

They'd have to average close to 4k per card to hit around the 3mil estimate mark. That estimate was too high. In another thread, a board member estimated 25k for each Cobb. That seems like a more reasonable number.

[npa589]

Originally Posted by calvindog

No one can possibly believe this family is happy after last night.

Well, this is not entirely true - I believe this family could be happy after last night. There is such a thing as not being consumed by greed. There are families, and there are people, that still have this type of character and perspective.

Just my opinion of course.

.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by npa589

Well, this is not entirely true - I believe this family could be happy after last night. There is such a thing as not being consumed by greed. There are families, and there are people, that still have this type of character and perspective.

Just my opinion of course.

.

One is not "consumed by greed" if they're led to believe their cards are worth a million bucks and they only see 240K, comeon. You can't possibly blame them for being unhappy about the auction.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by npa589

Well, this is not entirely true - I believe this family could be happy after last night. There is such a thing as not being consumed by greed. There are families, and there are people, that still have this type of character and perspective.

Just my opinion of course.

.

then they could have just given the cards away then, i would have taken one.


there were 20 members of this family. their cadillac turned into a used hundai.