OT: Colorado shooting

[Peter_Spaeth]

Scott, I think juries are skeptical of mental illness defenses because it's difficult to swallow the proposition that someone who carries out a pre-meditated crime is so impaired that they aren't capable of distinguishing right from wrong, or controlling their conduct. Particularly where the evidence of insanity typically would be an expert psychiatrist paid for by the defense, which has been contradicted by a prosecution psychiatrist.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Scott, I think juries are skeptical of mental illness defenses because it's difficult to swallow the proposition that someone who carries out a pre-meditated crime is so impaired that they aren't capable of distinguishing right from wrong, or controlling their conduct. Particularly where the evidence of insanity typically would be an expert psychiatrist paid for by the defense, which has been contradicted by a prosecution psychiatrist.

Peter, I'm skeptical of such insanity defenses as well, but the example I showed above indicates that society needs its pound of flesh, even when they know someone was insane PRIOR to killing. I also understand that most people don't understand that the ability to plan a killing does not mean that someone is operating in his own mind - nor do they care (although I'm sure some have slight qualms at having the insane lethally injected), as long as the person was acting with a mind that performed acts rational for a killer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Scott let me give you a hypothetical. Schizophrenic, does fine on meds, takes a medication holiday because of side effects or for whatever reason, in uncontrolled state commits murder. Just put him back on meds and send him on his way?

[Matthew H]

Peter, schitzophrenia is not a "get out of jail free card". From what I've heard, the psych wards within the prison system is much worse then the general population. The people in there can be unstable and dangerous.

Your hypothetical is very possible and is something that I deal with on a frequent basis. Not only from "taking a vaction from meds" but also from the meds not having the same effect over time, also over medicating.

What are we supposed to do? The average schitzophrenic doesn't end up mass murdering... Most end up living a VERY difficult life being seriously uncomfortable in their own skin. Not having a normal functioning brain is a hard way to wake up in the morning. It's also very hard on the families of them.

It's very frustrating to me that only mass murder will very slightly raise awareness, and only for a short period of time. It doesn't matter what the jury decides. This guy will never see the light of day, regardless of whether or not they accept an illness plea.

[packs]

I've always been of the opinion that a rational person pleads insanity and an insane person is not aware they're insane.

[Peter_Spaeth]

But Matt, suppose, and maybe it's a hypothetical that doesn't exist, but suppose that a schizophrenic would be normal or at least functional so long as they take meds. What would be the point of confining them indefinitely for a crime they committed while off the meds?

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But Matt, suppose, and maybe it's a hypothetical that doesn't exist, but suppose that a schizophrenic would be normal or at least functional so long as they take meds. What would be the point of confining them indefinitely for a crime they committed while off the meds?

Peter, there are many levels of schitzophrenia ranging from mild to the very extreme. Once it's known what a particular individual is capable of, like in this case, or any case involving murder, it's too risky to trust any medication to keep the individual stable enough for reintegration into society, IMO.

I haven't heard of any case where someone snapped, killed somebody, was given medication, and sent home.

It's really up to families, of the mentally ill, to make sure things are ok. For me it's been a 15 year battle that I expect to never end. I'd love to see more funding, better research, and better understanding.

Scott - thanks for you posts too.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by packs

I've always been of the opinion that a rational person pleads insanity and an insane person is not aware they're insane.

You nailed it.

I've said this in several posts, but it bears repeating: Schizophrenia and bipolar disorder affect the part of the brain that controls 'insight'. This means that schizophrenics NEVER know that they are schizophrenic. They have to be talked into taking meds for reasons other than: you are schizophrenic. People with bipolar disorder do not have insight during mania, but usually (but not always) have insight when they come down.

It's a tough concept to wrap your brain around - unfortunately, many psychiatrists can't do it either.

Peter - the 'medical vacation' you refer to is VERY common with schizophrenics; in fact, almost all take such a vacation regularly. It's a tough illness to deal with, but it's still mental illness.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Peter, schitzophrenia is not a "get out of jail free card". From what I've heard, the psych wards within the prison system is much worse then the general population. The people in there can be unstable and dangerous.

Your hypothetical is very possible and is something that I deal with on a frequent basis. Not only from "taking a vaction from meds" but also from the meds not having the same effect over time, also over medicating.

What are we supposed to do? The average schitzophrenic doesn't end up mass murdering... Most end up living a VERY difficult life being seriously uncomfortable in their own skin. Not having a normal functioning brain is a hard way to wake up in the morning. It's also very hard on the families of them.

It's very frustrating to me that only mass murder will very slightly raise awareness, and only for a short period of time. It doesn't matter what the jury decides. This guy will never see the light of day, regardless of whether or not they accept an illness plea.

Matt - thanks for this post.