OT: Colorado shooting

[barrysloate]

David- the shooter in this case had a clean record. What is so mystifying at this stage is that Holmes was a solid citizen who was working towards a PhD in neuroscience and showed virtually no antisocial tendencies at all. People who knew him had nothing bad to say about him except that he was quiet and a little standoffish. Hey, that's a pretty good description of me too.

But what about someone like Loughner? Are you telling me that he was properly vetted and nothing came up? Because that guy makes Charles Manson look like a solid citizen. He was an absolute psychopath. Exactly what does this form 4473 check out in a person's past?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Exactly what does this form 4473 check out in a person's past?

The Form itself asks for basic information about yourself. Then you answer a series of yes or no questions. Then the dealer calls it in to the ATF where a background check is ran. I do not know how extensive the bacground check is. This is the first page. Then you sign and date the back page. I believe the other 2 pages are instructions on how to fill it out.

Edited to add: Although gun laws are different from state the state, this form still has to be completed by anyone purchasing a gun from a licensed dealer in the USA.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That's a useful form. I am sure people purchasing guns with bad intent are careful to be truthful.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That's a useful form. I am sure people purchasing guns with bad intent are careful to be truthful.

I guess it's easier to complain than offer solutions. How do you think it could be improved?

Here's some of my ideas:
Ban assault rifles
Ban high capacity clips
Waiting period
Serial numbers on ammunition that could be traced back to the purchaser

Also, forgot to mention there is a place on the back of the form that describes the gun(s) you are purchasing - brand, model, caliber, action, serial number, etc.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I guess it's easier to complain than offer solutions. How do you think it could be improved?

Here's some of my ideas:
Ban assault rifles
Ban high capacity clips
Waiting period
Serial numbers on ammunition that could be traced back to the purchaser

Also, forgot to mention there is a place on the back of the form that describes the gun(s) you are purchasing - brand, model, caliber, action, serial number, etc.

David, I agree with all those suggestions, I think those would be helpful. Although I don't know the facts here, I am also guessing background checks probably could be more rigorous than they are. I know the counterargument is that anyone who wants to kill someone will find a way to do it, but in America that seems to happen, with guns mostly purchased lawfully, with alarming frequency. It is at least worth the experiment to see if tightening the process helps.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

David, I agree with all those suggestions, I think those would be helpful. Although I don't know the facts here, I am also guessing background checks probably could be more rigorous than they are. I know the counterargument is that anyone who wants to kill someone will find a way to do it, but in America that seems to happen, with guns mostly purchased lawfully, with alarming frequency. It is at least worth the experiment to see if tightening the process helps.

Peter, it's just a sad, senseless tragedy. But people try to make it into a gun issue and in my opinion it's not. It's a mental sickness that makes someone want to kill another person out of cold blood and they'll find any means to do it.

I don't know the numbers, but I bet more innocent people will be killed this weekend by drunk drivers than were killed in Aurora. So, do we ban alcohol? I really don't drink, I could care less. Maybe it's worth the experiment to see if it reduces the number of alcohol related fatalities.

I just don't understand that when a drunk driver kills someone, we don't blame the alcohol or the vehicle, we blame the person for not having the responsibility to control themselves. The situation in Auroroa should be no different. Let's quit focusing on how he did and and focus on why he did it and maybe we can prevent things like this from happening again.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mothers Against Drunk Driving would certainly agree with making it more difficult for people to drive drunk, as would I. I believe some states have enacted some fairly tough dram shop laws in an effort to make this more than an issue about personal responsibility.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

but I bet more innocent people will be killed this weekend by drunk drivers than were killed in Aurora. So, do we ban alcohol?......I just don't understand that when a drunk driver kills someone, we don't blame the alcohol or the vehicle,

David,
I find it difficult to equate vehicles with guns. Travel in vehicles is a necessity for many obvious reasons. It is hard to imagine modern civilization and economies without it (including private ownership of vehicles). Private ownership of weapons that produce a high rate of fire is not analogous to vehicle ownership.

As to DWI - there are very strict laws against it everywhere. The high number of deaths can be attributed to the fact that nearly everyone drives. In any case, banning alcohol did not work. As to whether much stricter gun laws would work, some countries surely do have them. It doesn't always prevent mass tragedies, but I would still consider that at least an open and very important relevant question.

[Wite3]

I am a so sorry for those who were harmed in Colorado...

Joshua

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

But what about someone like Loughner? Are you telling me that he was properly vetted and nothing came up?

Unfortunately, yes. Loughner also purchased his gun legally as well. Filled out the same form, went through the same background check.

I believe he used a single Glock 9mm and killed 6 people. That's what I meant earlier by saying that Holmes could have done the same thing even without the assault rifle.

[bmarlowe1]

The contemporary debate over what the second amendment really means notwithstanding (the latest interpretation with respect to private ownership unrelated to a "militia" being the result of a 5-4 SC decision that could very well change at some point), I have always wondered what the drafters would think it should mean now that firearms are no longer muzzle-loaded with a rate of fire of 1-3 shots per minute. Guns now are so relatively inexpensive (compared to 18thC cost) and produce a rate a fire (even if they are only semi-automatic) far beyond what those 18thC men ever envisioned.

As to the comments about the ineffectiveness of Chicago gun laws, of course they are ineffective - there aren't border guards at every entry point into the city. Any gun laws, if they are to be effective (and I admit that is a big "if") have to be national.

[Peter_Spaeth]

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

How there is an unfettered right to own guns, unconnected to a militia that is now obsolete, eludes me.

[barrysloate]

Thanks David for posting that form. Bottom line is if somebody like Loughner can buy guns legally then we have to accept the fact that these crimes are not preventable. I guess it's not a matter of if, but when and where the next massacre will occur. And I don't have a solution either.