Question about PSA/JSA "Guarantees"

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by toybulldog

Why guarantee an item will pass a third party authenticator when the TPA doesn't even guarantee there opinion?

Because a lot of buyers want that TPA, for whatever reason (some take their word as gospel, some like the protection of a slab, some like uniformity in their collection, and most recognize the market that the TPAs have created and want greater resale value themselves). Whether or not a seller has/wants to use a TPA, buyers sure do. When I have listed autos on eBay without certs, all of the questions I get are about certs.

And what would it mean for a TPA to "guarantee" their opinion, anyway? If an item can be shown to be bunk, not by another person's opinion but actually proven to be a forgery a la laser copies, impossibly dated material, etc, then the TPAs should refund the cost of authentication. They aren't and shouldn't be responsible for the selling price of any item. It is an opinion, not an insurance policy.

[Exhibitman]

Truth is a slippery thing, Travis. Did you see any of the autographs you are labeling fake and real signed in person? If so, which ones? If not, with all due respect, your opinion as to everything you did not see signed is just an opinion, same as any TPA opinion is just an opinion. Unless I want to collect only what I personally saw signed, I have to rely on opinions. Since all we are really dealing in most of the time is opinion, whether an item "really really" was signed or not is unknowable and as such is entirely irrelevant to the market. Buyers like the TPA opinions. Buyers respect TPA opinions. Buyers pay for the TPA opinions. They don't care about my opinion. Or yours, unless you are a TPA issuing a LOA. If I market that Holyfield signed card raw I might get someone to take a risk for $10. In the slab I can get a multiple of that all day, every day. Is the one in the slab forged or real? I didn't see it signed, so I don't know. But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care.

Try this one on for atypical signatures: Look at the Lennox Lewis in the PSA/DNA holder. How can we explain its lack of resemblance to the one below that I got myself at a promotional appearance for the Klitschko fight?

PSA version:



Card I got signed personally:



I can sell or trade the PSA version all day long; mine isn't worth a plugged nickel, though I enjoy it immensely since it reminds of me meeting the champ.

[toybulldog]

Is the one in the slab forged or real? I didn't see it signed, so I don't know. But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care.

Selling something and really not caring if it's forged or real? I would hope integrity and conscience would be part of the equation.

Mark Ogren
Schenectady, NY

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by toybulldog

Selling something and really not caring if it's forged or real? I would hope integrity and conscience would be part of the equation.

Mark Ogren
Schenectady, NY

I believe his point, which is one I agree with, is that perception is reality in this area of collecting. Some people here like to say "Either the auto is real or it isn't." That is true, but unfortunately irrelevant, because all we have are opinions and opinions of those giving opinions.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

I believe his point, which is one I agree with, is that perception is reality in this area of collecting. Some people here like to say "Either the auto is real or it isn't." That is true, but unfortunately irrelevant, because all we have are opinions and opinions of those giving opinions.

That is exactly correct, Wayne; thank you for not purposefully misrepresenting my point. One of the things that absolutely drives me nuts in this field is the substitution of opinion for fact and the demand for fact when opinion is all that is available. Unless I was standing there watching the subject sign I cannot state as fact that an autograph is authentic: I must rely on what an eyewitness tells me [hearsay] or the opinion of an expert. Since I cannot testify from firsthand experience of the signing as to all but a few items I own, the most I can do is offer an opinion. I do not have the cachet or expertise to offer a marketable opinion so I hire an expert to do it for me. Hopefully I hire a good one, but as long as I hire one whose opinions are generally accepted by the buyers in the pertinent marketplaces and that expert renders an opinion, what I think is irrelevant and what the unknowable ultimate facts are likewise are irrelevant. As the ultimate fact is unknowable and irrelevant, I do not care whether an item is "real" as many colloquially put it; I care that I do not mislead anyone about what I am offering.

Anyone who collects or trades in signatures ultimately is trading in opinions, not facts. I know some folks don't like to admit that, but it is the inescapable truth.

[cjedmonton]

Okay, so I should go with GAI, then?

Sorry, couldn't resist. Such an entertaining/informative thread...only wish I had something more to contribute other than the OP.

[Plinvestments]

TPAs are like US dollars. With our debt problems in this country, a dollar is probably not worth a dollar. You're better off holding gold or loonies or kronas. However, the last time I checked, I couldn't fill my enlarged belly at McDonald's with kronas. Therefore, the ol mighty dollar is still king.

On another note, Richard mentioned how "the hobby" is being ruined. I think there needs to be a clarification. The autograph market and autograph hobby are distinctly different. amazon entered the memorabilia business because they said the $4 billion market was to hard to ignore. What portion of that do you attribute to hobbyists? I would guess less than 5% of that. The rest buy autographs for the art/display factor or recreation factor. They are not that concerned about value. I compare them to people who buy prints on cruise ships. They are not art collectors and the pieces they buy are for aesthetics, not collector value.

The hobbyists are very well informed. They know what they want, how to detect fakes, and know who they can buy from. Richard does a stellar job servicing the hobby. However, more generalist dealers serve the entire market, which includes the rest of the 95%. those are the people who request/demand and see value in tpa's.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by cjedmonton

Okay, so I should go with GAI, then?

Ask me on Monday when they open...

[RichardSimon]

Quote from Adam in post 39:"I didn't see it signed, so I don't know (if it is real). But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care."

Originally Posted by toybulldog

Selling something and really not caring if it's forged or real? I would hope integrity and conscience would be part of the equation.

Mark Ogren
Schenectady, NY

Boy if the top quote is not one of the major things wrong in the autograph hobby then I don't know what is. I know I really, really care if something is real when I sell it, my reputation is on the line with every sale, and if someone GAVE ME a slabbed PSA piece that I believed was not real, I would drop it down the chute of the incinerator room on the floor of my apt. bldg.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Quote from Adam in post 39:"I didn't see it signed, so I don't know (if it is real). But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care."




Boy if the top quote is not one of the major things wrong in the autograph hobby then I don't know what is. I know I really, really care if something is real when I sell it, my reputation is on the line with every sale, and if someone GAVE ME a slabbed PSA piece that I believed was not real, I would drop it down the chute of the incinerator room on the floor of my apt. bldg.

What I wrote was: "Is the one in the slab forged or real? I didn't see it signed, so I don't know. But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care."

Your example is colorful but it assumes facts not in evidence, as they say in my profession. I did not say that I do not care if something is fake. If I believe something is fake I certainly would not sell it; arguing against that straw man is a misrepresentation of my views. My point was and is that in the absence of evidence I can understand--like a card made after a player's death with a signature or a preprint mistakenly labeled as genuine--if I do not know the answer and if I hired an expert to opine for me, I will not contradict the expert's opinion with my own guess and I therefore am not concerned with whether an objectively unknowable fact is true. I hire a professional whose work is accepted in the market and I rely on that professional's expertise, just as someone hires me to explain the nuances of a commercial lease. The entire autograph business is based on opinions rather than facts, and when nobody knows the ultimate fact [whether the person really held and signed the item], it becomes irrelevant.

Anyone who collects or sells autographs has a very simple choice: collect only what you get yourself in person or through trusted associates and friends or rely on [presumably] expert opinions including your own as to what you are buying. But if you decide to collect or sell anything not signed in your presence, then let's not continue to pretend that establishing the authenticity of such items is objective in nature. It can't be objective given the lack of hard facts and by definition you are relying on an expert's opinion. Now, if you want to accuse me of hiding behind the opinions of professional experts, OK, you got me. I plead guilty to doing the same thing with sports memorabilia that I do with my car, my computer, my plumbing, etc.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

What I wrote was: "Is the one in the slab forged or real? I didn't see it signed, so I don't know. But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care."

Your example is colorful but it assumes facts not in evidence, as they say in my profession. I did not say that I do not care if something is fake. If I believe something is fake I certainly would not sell it; arguing against that straw man is a misrepresentation of my views. My point was and is that in the absence of evidence I can understand--like a card made after a player's death with a signature or a preprint mistakenly labeled as genuine--if I do not know the answer and if I hired an expert to opine for me, I will not contradict the expert's opinion with my own guess and I therefore am not concerned with whether an objectively unknowable fact is true. I hire a professional whose work is accepted in the market and I rely on that professional's expertise, just as someone hires me to explain the nuances of a commercial lease. The entire autograph business is based on opinions rather than facts, and when nobody knows the ultimate fact [whether the person really held and signed the item], it becomes irrelevant.

Anyone who collects or sells autographs has a very simple choice: collect only what you get yourself in person or through trusted associates and friends or rely on [presumably] expert opinions including your own as to what you are buying. But if you decide to collect or sell anything not signed in your presence, then let's not continue to pretend that establishing the authenticity of such items is objective in nature. It can't be objective given the lack of hard facts and by definition you are relying on an expert's opinion. Now, if you want to accuse me of hiding behind the opinions of professional experts, OK, you got me. I plead guilty to doing the same thing with sports memorabilia that I do with my car, my computer, my plumbing, etc.

I love it.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Truth is a slippery thing, Travis. Did you see any of the autographs you are labeling fake and real signed in person? If so, which ones? If not, with all due respect, your opinion as to everything you did not see signed is just an opinion, same as any TPA opinion is just an opinion. Unless I want to collect only what I personally saw signed, I have to rely on opinions. Since all we are really dealing in most of the time is opinion, whether an item "really really" was signed or not is unknowable and as such is entirely irrelevant to the market. Buyers like the TPA opinions. Buyers respect TPA opinions. Buyers pay for the TPA opinions. They don't care about my opinion. Or yours, unless you are a TPA issuing a LOA. If I market that Holyfield signed card raw I might get someone to take a risk for $10. In the slab I can get a multiple of that all day, every day. Is the one in the slab forged or real? I didn't see it signed, so I don't know. But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care.

Try this one on for atypical signatures: Look at the Lennox Lewis in the PSA/DNA holder. How can we explain its lack of resemblance to the one below that I got myself at a promotional appearance for the Klitschko fight?

PSA version:



Card I got signed personally:



I can sell or trade the PSA version all day long; mine isn't worth a plugged nickel, though I enjoy it immensely since it reminds of me meeting the champ.

there is so much wrong with everything you said i cant even start.

[ibuysportsephemera]

Originally Posted by travrosty

there is so much wrong with everything you said i cant even start.

Why....I think Adam is doing an amazing job of describing how many of us feel about the autograph part of this hobby. I never got into autographs because I could never get comfortable if I didn't see something signed in person. That is just me and I certainly do not criticize people who enjoy autographs as much as I enjoy my publications, photos, tickets, etc.

Jeff

[toybulldog]

Did you see any of the autographs you are labeling fake and real signed in person? If so, which ones? If not, with all due respect, your opinion as to everything you did not see signed is just an opinion, same as any TPA opinion is just an opinion. Unless I want to collect only what I personally saw signed, I have to rely on opinions. Since all we are really dealing in most of the time is opinion, whether an item "really really" was signed or not is unknowable and as such is entirely irrelevant to the market. Buyers like the TPA opinions. Buyers respect TPA opinions. Buyers pay for the TPA opinions. They don't care about my opinion. Or yours, unless you are a TPA issuing a LOA.

Must disagree, you can compare your PSA vintage signed Holyfield to a screenfull (or two) of vintage Holyfields and see there is absolutely no resemblance. Nothing supports it.

If I market that Holyfield signed card raw I might get someone to take a risk for $10. In the slab I can get a multiple of that all day, every day. Is the one in the slab forged or real? I didn't see it signed, so I don't know. But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care.

Don't think you will get didley squat from someone who knows boxing autographs, they will immediately see you are full of it. Do believe you could get something from a novice collector with the TPA false value added to it but is that something to be proud of?

Mark Ogren
Schenectady, NY

[travrosty]

i also take offense to the statement that you just sell, and you dont care, as long as psa slabs it. I also take offense to the statement that no one cares about my opinion or mark ogren's opinion because we are not an official tpa.

we get asked all the time if PSA or JSA certed autographs are actually real or not when it concerns boxing.

we have sold hundreds upon hundreds of real boxing autographs to discerning collectors who are interested in getting a real autograph, not just a certed one. The autographs we have sold dont have a third party tpa - psa or jsa cert with it the vast, vast majority of the time and we sell them for market value to people all over the world.

so to say that psa or jsa is the only word that matters and who cares if it is real, is irresponsible.


psa and jsa kept certing geraldine liston signed "sonny liston" autographs as real, both encapsulating them and issuing full loa's for them, even though BCN newsletter had shown those to be wife signed for many years, psa and jsa kept certing them until people like myself and mark showed the auction houses and the tpa's that they were no good.

now if you got one in tomorrow and you knew it was a wife signed liston, i suppose you could list it on ebay and sell it as a real liston and you wouldnt care. i do care because i have to sleep at night.

If i wanted to , i didnt have to alert psa and jsa and the auction houses, i could simply buy geraldine liston signed "sonny liston" autographs for cheap and submit them to psa and jsa and get the certs and flip them for 800 dollars apiece. I would be rich. Playing the game I guess some people don't care. They want the cert and no autograph is real or fake, there is no truth in autographs, it's only what you can get certed. That's pathetic.

We have seen psa and jsa make hundreds of errors concerning these boxing autographs and you either fall into two camps. You are interested in finding out if the autograph is real or not, or you want money you think the tpa's can provide by get any autograph certed, whether you know they are real or not, or really care.

I will go with accuracy and with the truth, and the money will always follow a competant dealer that offers good autographs with experience in boxing autographs to back it up. Other can pay psa or jsa and spin the wheel.

Mark is right, a knowledgable collector and real boxing fan who knows their autographs will not purchase a bad boxing autograph even if it is in a psa or jsa holder with a full LOA. if it takes someone who doesnt know boxing autographs who buys it because it is psa or jsa. Again, is that something to be proud of, that someone who doesn't know but is trusting psa or jsa fell for an autograph that isn't any good?

I could have been rich many times over taking advantage of the loopholes knowing what psa or jsa would pass concerning boxing autographs and exploiting their inexperience in boxing. But I am not rich, because I put accuracy first. A bad boxing autograph that is encapsulated in a psa or jsa holder stays that way forever, which is sickening and something I hate to see, because we have seen almost every HOF boxer from Sullivan to Tyson in a bad holder or with a bad full LOA. And it infects the hobby forever when they don't know the autograph but give it the LOA or encapsulation anyway.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by ibuysportsephemera

Why....I think Adam is doing an amazing job of describing how many of us feel about the autograph part of this hobby. I never got into autographs because I could never get comfortable if I didn't see something signed in person. That is just me and I certainly do not criticize people who enjoy autographs as much as I enjoy my publications, photos, tickets, etc.

Jeff

I just wanted to be clear, i know there are people who dont specialize in autographs, so they dont what what to do, so they trust psa or jsa, which is the two companies they know others will trust too, and they can participate in the marketplace such as auctions and ebay and they can buy and sell without hassle.

The point i am trying to make is that it is an entire market that is not based on the truth of whether or not an autograph is real or not, especially concerning boxing, but it is a market based on popularity of the cert. and if thats what people are worried about, then they must realize they are participating in something that is not accuracy based, but popularity based.

that's all i am trying to say. I think many people are so confused as to whether an autograph can accurately be figured out, that they have thrown their hands up and decided to go with what is popular, that is they have decided that they will let psa and jsa decide for everybody what is real or not, and if it gets the cert, it's real, and if it gets rejected, it is fake.

i can tell you point blank that thinking like that is incredibly flawed, shortsighted, and wrong.

psa and jsa have wrongly authenticated as real the following autographs

secretarial signed john l sullivan letter

wife signed bob fitzsimmons letter

manager signed bob fitzsimmons letter

hotel registry ghost signed by james corbett, tom sharkey, and james jeffries

james corbett 1892 inscribed cut

Jack Johnson "signed" boxing card manufactured only after Johnson's death

manager signed jack dempsey autographed photo

11 bad max schmeling signed photos consigned to one auction and only pulled after they were alerted that the major tpa didnt quite hit the mark on that one.

secretarial signed jack sharkey signed photo

bad primo carnera signed photo

many, many, many bad joe Louis signed photos and album pages, too many to count, this is truly their low point. and i mean a LOT of them.

bad luis firpo signed photo but it got the cert anyway.

numerous wife signed sonny liston signed album pages while rejected authentic signed liston autographs.

An autographed album page they encapsulated and certified as Rocky Marciano that is an autograph of Rocky Graziano.

Rocky Marciano preprinted or stamped autographed photo.

Many, many many bad Muhammad Ali signatures both secretarial, autopen and
just plain bad signatures on all types of photos, and pages. And we are talking a lot, in one instance 75 ali autographed photos were certed in a row with consecutive cert numbers. this is a type of ali autographed photo they won't cert anymore, but it didnt stop 75 consecutive ones to get the cert. Do they know Ali?

Mike Tyson preprinted 8 x 10 photo where the autograph is IN the photo, not on top of it.

So does this convince you yet, or what? And these are only the ones that show up on ebay and online for sale. not considering the zillions of certed boxing autographs that just go in someones collection that we can't see.

You can just play the game and go with the cert, it's called cert shopping, or you can find out if it is actually a genuine boxing autograph or not. Your choice. Many choose the cert shopping for monetary reasons. I understand why they choose it ($$$) but not why it makes them true boxing autograph collectors and dealers.

One compay told me directly that they need help in boxing. why would they say that if they were "world experts" as they claim to be? That means the best in the world? Who knows boxing autographs and believes that statement? no one.

[ibuysportsephemera]

Originally Posted by travrosty

I just wanted to be clear, i know there are people who dont specialize in autographs, so they dont what what to do, so they trust psa or jsa, which is the two companies they know others will trust too, and they can participate in the marketplace such as auctions and ebay and they can buy and sell without hassle.

The point i am trying to make is that it is an entire market that is not based on the truth of whether or not an autograph is real or not, especially concerning boxing, but it is a market based on popularity of the cert. and if thats what people are worried about, then they must realize they are participating in something that is not accuracy based, but popularity based.

that's all i am trying to say. I think many people are so confused as to whether an autograph can accurately be figured out, that they have thrown their hands up and decided to go with what is popular, that is they have decided that they will let psa and jsa decide for everybody what is real or not, and if it gets the cert, it's real, and if it gets rejected, it is fake.

i can tell you point blank that thinking like that is incredibly flawed, shortsighted, and wrong.

psa and jsa have wrongly authenticated as real the following autographs

secretarial signed john l sullivan letter

wife signed bob fitzsimmons letter

manager signed bob fitzsimmons letter

hotel registry ghost signed by james corbett, tom sharkey, and james jeffries

james corbett 1892 inscribed cut

Jack Johnson "signed" boxing card manufactured only after Johnson's death

manager signed jack dempsey autographed photo

11 bad max schmeling signed photos consigned to one auction and only pulled after they were alerted that the major tpa didnt quite hit the mark on that one.

secretarial signed jack sharkey signed photo

bad primo carnera signed photo

many, many, many bad joe Louis signed photos and album pages, too many to count, this is truly their low point. and i mean a LOT of them.

bad luis firpo signed photo but it got the cert anyway.

numerous wife signed sonny liston signed album pages while rejected authentic signed liston autographs.

An autographed album page they encapsulated and certified as Rocky Marciano that is an autograph of Rocky Graziano.

Rocky Marciano preprinted or stamped autographed photo.

Many, many many bad Muhammad Ali signatures both secretarial, autopen and
just plain bad signatures on all types of photos, and pages. And we are talking a lot, in one instance 75 ali autographed photos were certed in a row with consecutive cert numbers. this is a type of ali autographed photo they won't cert anymore, but it didnt stop 75 consecutive ones to get the cert. Do they know Ali?

Mike Tyson preprinted 8 x 10 photo where the autograph is IN the photo, not on top of it.

So does this convince you yet, or what? And these are only the ones that show up on ebay and online for sale. not considering the zillions of certed boxing autographs that just go in someones collection that we can't see.

You can just play the game and go with the cert, it's called cert shopping, or you can find out if it is actually a genuine boxing autograph or not. Your choice. Many choose the cert shopping for monetary reasons. I understand why they choose it ($$$) but not why it makes them true boxing autograph collectors and dealers.

One compay told me directly that they need help in boxing. why would they say that if they were "world experts" as they claim to be? That means the best in the world? Who knows boxing autographs and believes that statement? no one.

Travis, I agree with you because NO ONE can say with absolute certainty if an autograph is real or not if they didn't see it signed in front of them. So anyone using a TPA is only getting the opinion not the guarantee that the autograph is real.

Of the few autographs pieces in my collection, I am not certain that they are all real but I think that they look good and that is enough for me. On the other hand, I am not considering any time soon, spending 1,000's of dollars adding autographs to my collection.

Jeff