Marino Cuts (Operation Bullpen)

[7nohitter]

Wow...you're telling me that Ryan is a fake? As I'm sitting here I'm comparing it to a ball I got straight form the Ryan foundation...they look exactly the same.

Scary.

[RichardSimon]

The man had occasional moments of artwork that were better then you would think.
I recall seeing his items in MAJOR auction SCD ads many years ago, and I don't mean CC.

[JimStinson]

I'm trying to do this from memory, there was another well known autograph guy there and if he wants to add to this he can. But I remember back when I was an autograph consultant for PSA , before their division was even launched and I remember being shown signed stuff that was supposed to be part of the "Bull pen" thing that at that time they were trying to nail down. The Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle, Sandy Koufax, Joe DiMaggio's were especially well executed. In fact most of their modern day stuff was pretty darn good. Their weakness seemed to be the easy guys like Feller, Killebrew, Reggie but frankly those were pretty close too. Where they REALLY dropped the ball was on the older vintage stuff , which was not well done at all , maybe thats because I'm more experienced in that area or maybe they were weaker I don;t know its been a long time. Hope this helps
____________________________________________
Sign up for my Mailing list Vintage Autographs for sale Daily, stinsonsports.com

[Mr. Zipper]

This thread inspired me to re-read Operation Bullpen and something just struck me. In the photos section there is a Marino signed "Five Presidents" photo. This is the pose taken at the Nixon Library of the 5 living presidents at the time (Nixon through Bush 41)

However, the signature over George HW Bush 41 is the signature of George W Bush (the future 43)!!!

The book mentions Greg Marino assembled a "black book" of exemplars. Obviously he was using the wrong Bush template.

[David Atkatz]

He wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

[travrosty]

Hey, I happen to know Kevin Nelson, who wrote the book Operation Bullpen. He doesn't belong to the forum but he did see this thread and he sent me this note to post. It says:

"Hey everyone, I happened to see your thread on Greg Marino cuts and I wanted to add my two cents. The person who said the quote about how "there really were no cuts" before Bray and Marino was Phil Halpern, the United States District Attorney in the case who was part of the FBI investigation. This is, to be sure, an exaggeration on Halpern's part, but there is absolutely no question that the Bray-Marino ring took cuts to a whole new level, producing tens of thousands of them and far exceeding anyone else in the business.

Marino, in his prime, was producing dozens of cuts every day, when he did cuts, and the ring was in full-time operation for years. In fact he told me that he produced more than a million forgeries in his career, including cuts and other types of forgeries. All best, Kevin Nelson"

[RichardSimon]

Yes the Marino ring took cuts to a new level volume wise but Dross and Zimmerman forged a huge amount of autographs, mostly on cuts.
I can still remember the day when I was set up at a baseball card show and a young couple came to my table, envelope in hand. They asked if I buy autographs. When I said yes they dumped the contents of the envelope on my table. There were probably about 50 cuts. All forgeries. When I asked them who they bought them from they told me Ron Dross. I had to tell them that everything was forged. They wanted to sell these autographs, which he had been collecting for some time, to finance their wedding. When I had to give them the bad news they were crestfallen. They proceeded to another table, manned by Richard Galasso, and he gave them the same news I did.
Dross eventually graduated to the infamous huge scam involving B&W HOF plaks, balls and photos.
He probably milked that scam for about $100K.
Nobody ever prosecuted them so perhaps the US Atty was not aware of the presence of these two. But they were full time forgers.

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Hey, I happen to know Kevin Nelson, who wrote the book Operation Bullpen. He doesn't belong to the forum but he did see this thread and he sent me this note to post. It says:

"Hey everyone, I happened to see your thread on Greg Marino cuts and I wanted to add my two cents. The person who said the quote about how "there really were no cuts" before Bray and Marino was Phil Halpern, the United States District Attorney in the case who was part of the FBI investigation. This is, to be sure, an exaggeration on Halpern's part, but there is absolutely no question that the Bray-Marino ring took cuts to a whole new level, producing tens of thousands of them and far exceeding anyone else in the business.

Marino, in his prime, was producing dozens of cuts every day, when he did cuts, and the ring was in full-time operation for years. In fact he told me that he produced more than a million forgeries in his career, including cuts and other types of forgeries. All best, Kevin Nelson"

Did Mr. Nelson get pics/scans of more forgeries during his research than what appeared in his book?

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by 7nohitter

Wow...you're telling me that Ryan is a fake? As I'm sitting here I'm comparing it to a ball I got straight form the Ryan foundation...they look exactly the same.

Scary.

It fooled me for years. Certainly a cut above the sloppy drek cartoonish Florida fakes. But the Feller kept nagging me and I posted it here about a year ago. Some folks thought they were good, but the eventual consensus was they were fakes. Look at the similarity in the top of the R in Ryan and the top of the B in Bob.

If the Feller was better, it'd probably still be fooling me. I compare the Koufax to known authentic exemplars and I still cant find a fatal flaw.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

It fooled me for years. Certainly a cut above the sloppy drek cartoonish Florida fakes. But the Feller kept nagging me and I posted it here about a year ago. Some folks thought they were good, but the eventual consensus was they were fakes. Look at the similarity in the top of the R in Ryan and the top of the B in Bob.

If the Feller was better, it'd probably still be fooling me. I compare the Koufax to known authentic exemplars and I still cant find a fatal flaw.

FYI,

The fatal flaw for me in the Koufax is at the beginning of Sandy....With an authentic Koufax, The bottom "tail of the S" does not point upward like the forgery shown here.

It is very easy to see this is a Koufax forgery at first glance. Basically a CSC, Birdsick, Stat, Morales GAI (Baker) special....

[David Atkatz]

Come on. Do you believe the man who penned these beauties (Greg Marino) was actually capable of fooling an educated collector?
There's no way that Ryan above is a Marino creation.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Come on. Do you believe the man who penned these beauties (Greg Marino) was actually capable of fooling an educated collector?
There's no way that Ryan above is a Marino creation.]

Are you saying its not a forgery or someone better than Marino forged it?

[David Atkatz]

I'm no expert on Ryan--I couldn't spot a lousy forgery.
But if that ball is forged--the experts here say it is an excellent forgery, and I trust them--then someone better than Marino is the culprit.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

It fooled me for years. Certainly a cut above the sloppy drek cartoonish Florida fakes. But the Feller kept nagging me and I posted it here about a year ago. Some folks thought they were good, but the eventual consensus was they were fakes. Look at the similarity in the top of the R in Ryan and the top of the B in Bob.

If the Feller was better, it'd probably still be fooling me. I compare the Koufax to known authentic exemplars and I still cant find a fatal flaw.

Go to the thread "lets see pics from signings", I have a Koufax posted there.
Look at the loop on the S. The forgers usually screw up there.

[JimStinson]

Master counterfeiters (I'm told) Can "freehand" twenty dollar bills. So how difficult is it for them to forge a Lou Gehrig or Babe Ruth ? What an autograph "looks Like" is certainly important BUT there are other factors in play when trying to determine authenticity. Most seasoned dealers (and collectors) know this.

[ss]

Quote/"It fooled me for years. Certainly a cut above the sloppy drek cartoonish Florida fakes. But the Feller kept nagging me and I posted it here about a year ago. Some folks thought they were good, but the eventual consensus was they were fakes. Look at the similarity in the top of the R in Ryan and the top of the B in Bob."

The entire "B" and "R" are the same. Also, look at the "o" in Bob and the "a" in Sandy, they are almost identical.