Black Swamp Find?

[E93]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

I remember this find, I think. Wasn't there a bunch of other super high grade e98s? I believe this card already sold before, for a bit over 100k. I can't remember which auction it was.

You are thinking of an E93 find where a PSA 9 Wagner sold for over 230k.
JimB

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by E93

You are thinking of an E93 find where a PSA 9 Wagner sold for over 230k.
JimB

Thanks Jim, my memory was wayy off

It's funny how many times a month PSA is getting bashed for being the idiots they are, yet we still have big supporters here that are PSA all the way. I guess their collection is valued in plastic and not in cards Whats the difference between them and GAI. Mike was just not big enough to survive the ordeal is all.

I think the Wagner should be bought and then graded by SGC and then have those dipsh!ts at PSA pay the hefty sum of the difference for their ignorance and stupidity. I think if thats a spot of paper loss on the front its a 1-3 at best. Far cry shy of a 10 in any matter though

[Matthew H]

Andrew you think that card my be in poor condition? Eek.

[peterose4hof]

Lionel Carter collection is fine. Dmitri Young collection is pushing it. Black Swamp Find is over the edge. If noone on this forum has heard of it there's no way it should be listed on a PSA Label.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Andrew you think that card my be in poor condition? Eek.

I think he means technically, if there was paper loss, then it should technically be graded 1-3.

Regardless of the # on the holder, if a person buys the card (and not the holder - whether its a 1 or a 10) it will fetch big bucks IMO. Beautiful card!

Rob

[steve B]

I looked at the huge scans. If you haven't looked at those you should.

The white spot near his knee looks more like some lint in the holder.
The corners do show just the slightest wear. I only figured two, but won't argue if someone else sees three.
The marking on the back is an offset transfer, both red and brown. (And if it's from storage there might be another wagner just as nice!)
What looks like a scratch on the knee at the right I think is on the holder.
The white dot at the lower right and the one at the top center are too small to tell even from the huge scan. They're probably just print defects. If they're paper loss then things are very different.
The red is off register slightly low and left.

I don't think I'd be as harsh as calling it a 1-3, even if the two tiny spots are missing paper. Maybe a 4.

If they're just print defects, I'd be thinking more like 9-9.5, far from perfect with 4-5 trivial defects, but still extremely nice.

And still way more than I could afford, probably more than my house
Steve B

[wonkaticket]

Say what you will about HA but the best scans in the biz.

Great card....not a 10...but amazing card. Scott M is still king of the E98's IMO.

[wonkaticket]

[ullmandds]

Yea...at least 2 corners touched...those areas on l and r towards bottom concern me. A super sharp card. Anyone have e98 wags's to compare those bottom defects to?

[phlflyer1]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Great card....not a 10...but amazing card. Scott M is still king of the E98's IMO.

Thanks for the sentiment, John, although this find makes the E98 set from my find quite pedestrian.

They are incredible cards and it sounds like it couldn't have happened to a nicer family. I hope they do exceedingly well in the auction!

[E93]

Scott M. Is pure class. Happy to see you around Scott
JimB

[Tom Hufford]

I was in Defiance, OH just this past weekend - my wife and I visited friends there on the way home from the SABR National Convention in Minneapolis. We had lunch with a woman we knew, and her husband who we met for the first time. When he heard about my interest in baseball, he said "you'll probably be interested in this story, then," and told me about the "Black Swamp" find. (but he didn't call it that - he called it the "Kissner's cards").

The story he told me (and he has known the family for years) has a bit of a twist to it, a bit different than what has been reported and discussed. He said the two sisters who lived in the house were real collectors/"pack rats", and that they collected anything and everything. Evidently the house was packed to the rafters, with everything imaginable. So, then he starts telling me about the TOBACCO baseball cards that were found - and that "most of them had never been opened." So I filled him in about the 1910-era cigarette cards, but warned him that if the cigarette packs hadn't been opened, they may well contain cards with birds or flags, not always baseball cards. Then he said " they weren't in packages of cigarettes, they were in packages of CHEWING TOBACCO!" (Evidently, a few packages were opened to see what was inside). When I expressed an interest in trying to see the cards, I was told that the family had "gotten in touch with some people in Texas who said the cards were authentic, and they're going to auction them off." So, that was my introduction to the "Black Swamp Find" - then all the publicity the past few days.

But, the family that found the cards had no idea what they were - all the press and hype has been about the E98 (candy) cards, but evidently the people involved mentioned cards from chewing tobacco packages (how stained would those be after 100 years?). So, perhaps some TOBACCO cards will also surface from this find!

My wife's grandfather owned a jewelry store on Clinton Street (the main street in town) in Defiance in the 1920s-60s, about two blocks from the restaurant that Karl Kissner owns. Kissner's is a beautiful place - a huge old wooden bar, pressed tin ceiling, etc. Looks pretty much unchanged from the 1910 era. Based on where Carl Hench (the fellow who saved the cards in 1910) lived and worked, I feel pretty certain that my wife's grandfather probably knew him. I wish they would have traded and collected together!

[glchen]

Originally Posted by E93

You are thinking of an E93 find where a PSA 9 Wagner sold for over 230k.
JimB

This E93 Wagner in SGC 88/8 went for a "mere" 16.5K in the recently concluded Goodwin auction: Link

Funny thing is that if you look at the PSA pop report for the E98 Wagner from Heritage, the cert #19871751 is still not viewable. Also, the PSA pop report currently doesn't show any 10's for the E98's. Of course, it's very possible that PSA has not yet updated it's pop database yet.

Ok so looking at the bottom left corner by the knee is a bad spot. Is that a print defect or paper loss?

Also the 1-3 grade range falls correctly based on their scale not mine. We have seen some sharp cards with minor loss take a 1 grade. It's because it's Wagner on the card is the only reason that card graded that and PSA is a joke anyways. If this was a common do you think it would have gotten a 10? This is a joke and anyone that puts value in their grading is an idiot. Come on guys look at their track record. Just about every high end, high graded card that gets posted on this board by PSA is under speculation for over grading and alterations. I have more trust in Global than PSA. JMO

[pcoz]

That card is stunning. But, not a 10. In looking at a couple of corners(back bottom left in particular), I'd knock it down a notch, but not much. I'd give it an 8.5 if not a 9. Registration is off marginally as well, but I'm splitting hairs. Being an E card guy I can't think of one I've seen any nicer. Beauty!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

Ok so looking at the bottom left corner by the knee is a bad spot. Is that a print defect or paper loss?

Also the 1-3 grade range falls correctly based on their scale not mine. We have seen some sharp cards with minor loss take a 1 grade. It's because it's Wagner on the card is the only reason that card graded that and PSA is a joke anyways. If this was a common do you think it would have gotten a 10? This is a joke and anyone that puts value in their grading is an idiot. Come on guys look at their track record. Just about every high end, high graded card that gets posted on this board by PSA is under speculation for over grading and alterations. I have more trust in Global than PSA. JMO

I think the area you're mentioning is actually lint or something inside the slab. If it's not then you've got an excellent point.

I don't think it's worthy of a 10, but I'd have a tough time giving it a 1.

Steve B

[4815162342]

There's no reason to blanketly call collectors idiots for using a grading service. Andrew, I've had fun with the TPG acronym (or is it acrostic?) game myself - mine was Please Stop Authenticating Somebody Got Cheated By Valuing Grading, but I collect baseball cards in PSA and SGC holders, and wouldn't consider myself an idiot for collecting either.

This card is gorgeous no matter what the flip says. I'm sure that the hammer price will reflect that.

Does anyone know the answer to my original question?

Originally Posted by 4815162342

There's no reason to blanketly call collectors idiots for using a grading service. Andrew, I've had fun with the TPG acronym (or is it acrostic?) game myself - mine was Please Stop Authenticating Somebody Got Cheated By Valuing Grading, but I collect baseball cards in PSA and SGC holders, and wouldn't consider myself an idiot for collecting either.

This card is gorgeous no matter what the flip says. I'm sure that the hammer price will reflect that.

Does anyone know the answer to my original question?

Daryl I was referring to the idiots that put the value in the plastic container and not the card itself. I also buy slabbed cards but steer away from PSA as much as possible due to their reputation. Buy the card and not the holder.

[pcoz]

Just a quick question....is there much difference between "The Swamp Find" and this one?? Both look superb but with much different grades.

http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=19614

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by glchen

This E93 Wagner in SGC 88/8 went for a "mere" 16.5K in the recently concluded Goodwin auction: Link

Funny thing is that if you look at the PSA pop report for the E98 Wagner from Heritage, the cert #19871751 is still not viewable. Also, the PSA pop report currently doesn't show any 10's for the E98's. Of course, it's very possible that PSA has not yet updated it's pop database yet.

Doesn't the database get updated immediately when the grade is entered?
I would think in that environment, a real time update is likely with their software.

[glynparson]

yeah right not on a big time submitters invoice, they have a large submitter that would NEVER use them if he received the same grades you or i do. Not to mention the fact that hey let their friends go right into the grading room and argue over grades with them. Obviously they know who's card it is then. Just sit in front of their booth at the national and you will see some of their friends blatantly walk right into the grading room. I have not seen this at PSA, again I feel their are plenty of PSA screw ups I JUST DONT SEE THE PERCENTAGE AS ANY DIFFERENT FROM sgc TO psa. Remeber PSA has graded many many multiples of cards compared to SGC. So of course in sheer numbers there are more PSA screw ups than SGC. I just feel the majority of pSA screw ups are due to incompetence I wish I felt the same about the other guys.