T213 (1910 COUPON) Major Leaguers & imagine if Joe Jackson was in this set

[g_vezina_c55]

Sorry for my noob question but why the coupon back is not considered as a t206 back and t206 card

[Leon]

Originally Posted by g_vezina_c55

Sorry for my noob question but why the coupon back is not considered as a t206 back and t206 card

Most collectors of pre-war cards go by the numbering in Jefferson Burdick's, Card Collectors Catalog (1946,1953,1960). He cataloged white border cards as we know them, T206, and he cataloged cards similar to those but with"Coupon" backs, "brown or blue and on thin or thick stock", as T213. The "T" being for Twentieth Century Tobacco card. Hope this helps.

[g_vezina_c55]

Thx guy

[FrankWakefield]

The T213 type 1 "Coupon" cards are very thin. Virtually paper. If you had a bunch of T206s and T213-1s in you hand, loose, and you decided to sort them into two piles by type, you'd find yourself being careful so the T206's didn't damage the T213-1's. The latter are very thin and fragile. The front's surface seems slightly different from the T206's, quality-wise it is an inferior card. Mr. Lipset and others before him considered distribution about 1910-11. Seems to me that the American Tobacco Trust wanted thin, affordable cards for Coupon cigarettes, so some were made with the plates/stones still around from T206 card production. Some folks think the type 1 Coupons should be considered as part of T206. I don't. I think fewer would if they actually held a few in their hands, felt how thin they are, and noticed the quality of the printing. Mr. Burdick thought them separate... Mr. Lipset did. Those two were pretty smart about cards.

[tedzan]

Hey guys........

This 1st Coupon issue was marketed circa Spring--Summer 1910. And, this is where Burdick got it wrong, for his dating of these cards
was circa 1911-1912. Burdick's accomplishments were tremendous (especially in cataloging Non-Sports cards), so do not misconstrue.
I'm not being critical of him. Had he the correct year of issue of these COUPON cards, I feel certain that he would have classified them
in the T206 family.

American Litho. printed these cards on thinner cardboard stock because theywere NEVER meant to serve as cigarette pack "stiffners".

The COUPON brand was a new cigarette being marketed by ATC in the deep South. These cigarettes were packaged in large-lot boxes
that were labelled "COUPON" Cigarettes.

Therefore, the "thinner card" excuse is just a red-herring.

This is an un-deniable fact....in every respect, these white-bordered, brown-captioned cards, with a stylistic back design that matches
a T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CYCLE and DRUM cards. Furthermore, they were printed within the 350 Series timeframe of the
T206 set.
What more do you need to know to convince you that these cards are indeed T206's.


TED Z

[FrankWakefield]

Hey Ted. Where do you get the summer 1910 dating?

[tedzan]

Frank

Two factors......

1....A newspaper adv. of a box labelled "COUPON" Cigarettes dated 1910.

2....The common stylstic back design that was printed on T206's in the Summer of 1910 **





** Reference....American Litho. ledger data.


TED Z

[FrankWakefield]

The ad isn't for much. I don't doubt that there are Coupon ads from 1905...

The back similarity doesn't sway me, either.

I think the T206 progression is much like you and Scot Reader have it. But I think Coupons were an afterthought. American Litho looked around for the old plates and stones that were still serviceable, and printed Coupons from that. It was a second rate process. I think the newer designs for the 460's were used for T206s, and the initial designs were used for Coupon cards. I think Mr. Burdick had it about right.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

I think the T206 progression is much like you and Scot Reader have it. But I think Coupons were an afterthought. American Litho looked around for the old plates and stones that were still serviceable, and printed Coupons from that.

I think Mr. Burdick had it about right.

Frank

1st......regarding your last comment...." I think Mr. Burdick had it about right. "

Check out Burdick's records. He dates the T213-1 set circa 1912-14. His data on these cards is absolutely incorrect. In his extensive cataloguing efforts, he
took the easy way out and included them with the T213-2 & -3 sets. I don't fault him for doing so, given the information he had back in the 1930's - 1940's.

I have no expectations of convincing you; however, you credit Scot and I for our "T206 progression". Therefore, consider this....the Demmitt and O'Hara (NY
and St Louis) variations provide us an insight as to the timeline of the initial POLAR BEAR (PB) press run..circa June 1910. So, what does this have to do with
this "COUPON" issue ?
Of the 48 Major League subjects in this set, 39 are POLAR BEAR No-Prints. Excluding the 6 super-prints from the equation, 39/42 is a considerable majority.
I'd say this data sets the timeline for the printing of these COUPON cards to some date prior to June 1910.


Finally, I somewhat agree with your...."But I think Coupons were an afterthought." In the Spring of 1910, ALC was in the process of printing these 48 - Major
League guys in their regular T206 press runs. So, ALC ran off a bunch of 48-card (or 96-card) sheets of these cards with the "COUPON" backs. Then shipped
these cards to Factory #3 in Louisiana to be placed in boxes of "COUPON" cigarettes.....or, simply handed out to customers of these cigarettes.


Best regards ole buddy,

TED Z