E95 HW card? First post.

[gte930d]

Long time collector and lurker, first time on a baseball card forum. Please don’t dump on me for this post! I know what I got. (Bad joke). The story of an impossible card:

Backstory: my 78 year old father has had this card for over 70 years, so roughly since 1946. It was given to him by his grandfather, who got them from his uncle.
From my dad:
“No one who handled this card in the past had any idea of card values. It did come from Brooklyn source, an uncle of grandpa’s, when grandpa was very young. Came with large collection of baseball and college cards. And came in old wooden cigar box with no writing on box. I got it circa when I was under 10 years old when I was staying over weekends with them.”

Let me be clear, I know this card is questionable as it sits. I’ve done some research, from what I know: Philadelphia caramel in NJ did all e95 production in one facility, so physically impossible to have a tobacco back on a candy card? Additionally The t206 cards had various backs, but even the HW of t206 never came w the 350 back, etc.

My leading theory, including motivation, is that this was a card cut from the ca. 1913 notebook series and a back slapped on it to “make it a a real card” for some kid in period. Whomever did it did not know the 150/350 series production details of the t206 series either, and just slapped on what they had at that time. The borders appear slimmer than normal. I do not have card in hand to measure thickness or length x width. I will during the holidays.

Question:
1. is there any information above that could be untrue regarding how this card could come to be regarding production and e95/t206 series?
2. Is there ANY possibility as to how this card could be a REAL card, i.e. an e95 with a 350 tobacco back?

I’ve found no there instances of e95 cards with 350 (or even 150) tobacco backs.
No other cards from the group that was inherited long ago have similar impossible combinations (I.e. no other cards were cut from the notebook cover list with impossible backs within this collection). All other cards in this collection are standard combination fronts and backs with standard border thickness.

I know even as a common e95 w sc back this is not that valuable given its condition. So there’s that as well.

[Eric72]

The Honus Wagner that appears to have ~15 pinholes on the front but none showing through on the back?

[sb1]

The back scan appears to show 2-3 cards in one pocket. take the Wagner out by itself....

[gte930d]

Originally Posted by Eric72

The Honus Wagner that appears to have ~15 pinholes on the front but none showing through on the back?

correct. the pinholes form "H W" . They do not go THROUGH the card.

Fair point, i'll need to get out a heavy magnifier and see how deep the holes are and how many "layers" they go through when i can hold the card in person.

[gte930d]

Originally Posted by sb1

The back scan appears to show 2-3 cards in one pocket. take the Wagner out by itself....

the reverse image is the single "HW" card in a plastic page. it's just being held up in the air for a photo. it's not a scan, just a photo. I'm having to diagnose this card from a couple thousand miles away from it, however i can verify having seen the card before it's an e95 HW style front with the 350 back on the same "card".

I'm using quotes around "HW card" and words like "style" out of respect for the verified originals out there.

[Luke]

We'd have to see a lot better photos to be able to help much. It sounds like you're saying that the Wagner has a T206 Sweet Cap back glued on to it. The front sure looks like a legit e95 Wagner, so if it is rebacked, it will still have a little value. If value is the question you're asking.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by gte930d

correct. the pinholes form "H W" . They do not go THROUGH the card.

Fair point, i'll need to get out a heavy magnifier and see how deep the holes are and how many "layers" they go through when i can hold the card in person.

If/when you have the chance to see the card in hand, use the magnifier to look closely at something else. Inspect the edges. When two cards (or parts thereof) are stuck together to form one, it's usually evident along the edges. It's easier to quickly spot than it is to quickly explain. Long story short...you'll see parts of two different pieces of card stock. There are exceptions, of course; however, you'll spot the majority of "Frankencard" fantasy creations this way.

[swarmee]

Welcome to the boards; you must have started at Georgia Tech around the same time I did, Fall of 1997.

[gte930d]

Originally Posted by Eric72

If/when you have the chance to see the card in hand, use the magnifier to look closely at something else. Inspect the edges. When two cards (or parts thereof) are stuck together to form one, it's usually evident along the edges. It's easier to quickly spot than it is to quickly explain. Long story short...you'll see parts of two different pieces of card stock. There are exceptions, of course; however, you'll spot the majority of "Frankencard" fantasy creations this way.

the challenge here is definitely going to be the patina of the frankencard, as it was done over 80 years ago.

Can anyone give me standard thickness of e95 cards?
Going to take a micrometer over the holidays.

Does anyone think the front borders look too slim at the top and sides?\
i.e. the notebook theory....?

Do the "notebook cutouts" have a different printing dot matrix? ..i.e. the e95 cards def have a "dots" style of ink on the front for the person image.

[G1911]

I think you have the best possible scenario OP. It sure looks like a period correct front and an authentic T206 back. Rebacked of course and not some misprint but an extremely poor condition cobbled together card, but the two parts do look authentic to me. Pretty funny card, “not that valuable” is up to you but even in this state a Wagner front is not worthless.

[Beercan collector]

Perhaps this is what happens when someone is desperate to add Honus Wagner to their t206 set

[ALBB]

could be a 1 of a kind, Id hang on to it...or sell it

[judsonhamlin]

If I remember, there was a story in the hobby back in the early 80’s about a “T206 Wagner batting” that had been found - clearly a frankencard - but someone may have created a couple of these back in the 60’s or 70’s to pass off as a new T206 pose.

[gabrinus]

That is obviously one of a kind and worth millions...Jerry

[gte930d]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Welcome to the boards; you must have started at Georgia Tech around the same time I did, Fall of 1997.

Damn some real detectives here! Close. Summer of 97!

[gte930d]

Originally Posted by judsonhamlin

If I remember, there was a story in the hobby back in the early 80’s about a “T206 Wagner batting” that had been found - clearly a frankencard - but someone may have created a couple of these back in the 60’s or 70’s to pass off as a new T206 pose.

That’s the weird thing here….my dad has had it at least since the very early 50’s, it came from a non collector grandfather (my great great) who obviously didn’t value them (cigar box) and from there it came from his uncle, so my great great great uncle? I can’t pretend to fathom the motivation, other than a parent appeasing a young child to fabricate something to carry around. I do that daily with my kids….

[gte930d]

Originally Posted by judsonhamlin

If I remember, there was a story in the hobby back in the early 80’s about a “T206 Wagner batting” that had been found - clearly a frankencard - but someone may have created a couple of these back in the 60’s or 70’s to pass off as a new T206 pose.

You’re sure you’re not referring to Heinie Wagner in the t206 set? He has a batting pose.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by gte930d

You’re sure you’re not referring to Heinie Wagner in the t206 set? He has a batting pose.

They're saying that the most likely explanation is that someone wanted a Honus Wagner T206 for their set, knowing even at the time that they were crazy short-printed, and then made it themself using a Honus card with a T206 back.

There are 1910 era articles talking about how rare the Honus card was, and that little kids were clamoring for them.

[judsonhamlin]

Originally Posted by gte930d

You’re sure you’re not referring to Heinie Wagner in the t206 set? He has a batting pose.

No. I just need to find the reference in one of the older hobby books. Definitely Honus.

[chalupacollects]

Is that white card stock showing by the pinholes and creases by bottom consistent with card stock used back then?


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[soxinseven]

Originally Posted by sb1

The back scan appears to show 2-3 cards in one pocket. take the Wagner out by itself....

Exactly. Wagner is sitting on top of the front of a T206 of Nicholls.

[ullmandds]

Can we pls soak it?

[gte930d]

Originally Posted by soxinseven

Exactly. Wagner is sitting on top of the front of a T206 of Nicholls.

I can assure you this specific card does not share a pocket sleeve with another.
Hand to heart it’s an illusion of the sheet below, and my father is acutely aware of the nature of this specific card. While not his most important card, it gets most of his attention. Lol.

I’ll take my own photos, measurements with a caliper of card thickness, and detailed photos of the edges over Christmas and report back!

[gte930d]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Can we pls soak it?

I would never soak it without another professional present, but out of curiosity, what would that procedure look like? Probably wouldn’t even be able to discuss soaking to my father, it would be like tossing the shroud of Turin in the laundry.

Warm water? Cold water? How much time? How to dry? Genuinely curious!