Legendary Auction -- Josh Gibson Toleteros card

[calvindog]

Funny that this card -- which sold for 14K just a couple months ago in Lelands -- was just graded and is now for sale in Legendary tonight. I wonder why Josh didn't have this card graded? Gee, what a head-scratcher, a big auction house like that wouldn't want to get a supposedly high end card graded before it was sold at auction.

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...00&category=1#

http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=1&auctionid=905

[CTDean]

My thoughts are knowing the card would grade PSA 7 at best, having the card graded would eliminate the PSA 8+ dreamers.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Come now, Jeffrey, Josh provided an explanation.

"This Joshua Gibson 1950-51 Toleteros has been left un-graded and in its raw unblemished state due to its late inclusion into this auction."

EDIT TO ADD
It was included late but was lot #1?

[calvindog]

Ahhh yes. The card couldn't be graded in a day, that's the ticket.

Boy, I'd sure like to look closely at the back (and front) of that card.

[Orioles1954]

No matter what grade it is, that Gibson is probably the most over-rated card in the hobby.

[slantycouch]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

No matter what grade it is, that Gibson is probably the most over-rated card in the hobby.

I'm always amazed by the attention it gets. I understand its importance, but there are MANY cards I'd go after before this one, at that price level.

[Orioles1954]

I guess I don't appreciate post-career "tribute" cards

[slidekellyslide]

I also think it's an overrated card. Didn't the value plummet after all the "rookie" card collectors got one?

[Orioles1954]

I've always felt that a "rookie" card is just that....a card from the player's rookie year or minor league issue. 1952 Topps Mantle? Not a rookie! 1986-87 Fleer Jordan? Not a rookie! 1982 Donruss Golf Niklaus? Not a rookie!

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think another reason for the price decline is that Leland's was able to trickle these out over a period of time, so that few people knew the total population.

The interesting question here of course is why, in this day and age, a major auction house would sell a high grade, major card raw.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The interesting question here of course is why, in this day and age, a major auction house would sell a high grade, major card raw.

Gee, like I said, that's a real head-scratcher. Maybe Lelands isn't aware that graded cards sell for more. Or maybe the card would have (or did) grade a 3 on closer inspection.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I wonder how far back in catalogs we would have to go to find a raw $10,000 card that could have been graded?

[Anthony S.]

If only there were some sort of delivery service which could pick up a card and get it to a grading company within, say, 24 hours. And what if grading services offered an, oh i don't know, 2 hour turn-around for a set fee. Ah, but that's just crazy talk. Some day.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Anthony S.

If only there were some sort of delivery service which could pick up a card and get it to a grading company within, say, 24 hours. And what if grading services offered an, oh i don't know, 2 hour turn-around for a set fee. Ah, but that's just crazy talk. Some day.

And someday they may invent a vehicle capable of transporting one from Long Island to suburban NJ and back in the same day.

[slantycouch]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And someday they may invent a vehicle capable of transporting one from Long Island to suburban NJ and back in the same day.

Let's not get crazy Doc Brown.

[Anthony S.]

My friend just got a greyhound from the SPCA. We could duct-tape the card to his side.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Anthony S.

If only there were some sort of delivery service which could pick up a card and get it to a grading company within, say, 24 hours. And what if grading services offered an, oh i don't know, 2 hour turn-around for a set fee. Ah, but that's just crazy talk. Some day.

Anthony, one day I suspect modern technology will provide for such a miracle. Until then, auction house executives with dozens of years of experience in the hobby will be stuck lamenting their fate that such a beautiful card could not be graded by SGC fast enough. Damn those printers who require 90 days lead time to print a catalog and those damn IT guys that require 60 days lead time to put an auction up online.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The consignor must also be lamenting the unfortunate timing.

[paul]

I hate to be so dense, but could someone please state what has gone unstated so far?

Is the idea that Leland's somehow didn't have the pull to convince PSA to overlook a subtle hairline crease, but Legendary did? And that Leland's knew the card had a subtle crease, but didn't disclose it?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The consignor must also be lamenting the unfortunate timing.

Yes, shame that the owner of such an expensive raw card also didn't think it made any sense to get it graded before selling it at auction.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I know! They sold it raw so it wouldn't get reported by VCP.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I know! They sold it raw so it wouldn't get reported by VCP.

Could be, could be. Maybe Josh doesn't like Bobby and doesn't want to help his site. Good thing I think the VCP is a great resource because when I have a 5 figure "NM" card I normally want to get it slabbed into that "NM" graded holder asap. But I guess that's why I'm just a lowly collector and not a high-powered "hobby executive" like Josh. Live and learn.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jeff don't feel bad even an anonymous lowly "collector" was quoted bashing Rob in the O'Keeffe piece.

[Rob D.]

Man, are you guys sarcastic.

[bijoem]

who is Josh Gibson?

[MikeU]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

No matter what grade it is, that Gibson is probably the most over-rated card in the hobby.

100% Agree

[zork1974]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

No matter what grade it is, that Gibson is probably the most over-rated card in the hobby.

Originally Posted by MikeU

100% Agree

Sorry guys but I would like to politely disagree with your assessment. Josh Gibson was one of the greatest players to ever play the game. With so few cards to collect, those of us who love the Negro Leagues and the history it represents have only a few cards to target for our collections. The card comes from a vintage era and it was published outside of mainstream America. It's aging and it's scarce. Compared to some of the prices we've seen over the years, $14 000 is a drop in the bucket. I would buy one in a heartbeat if I had the chance.

[triwak]

Zork,

I'm with you. Conspiracy theorists not withstanding, I would love to own that card!

[calvindog]

Well, the Gibson sold for 21K last night -- 50% more than it sold in a raw state just a couple months ago in Leland's!

I guess Josh Evans learned a valuable lesson: when you have a 5 figure card in "NM" condition it might make sense to get it put into a PSA 7 holder before you auction it off. Kudos to Doug--based on the way Josh runs his auctions I never thought he had anything to learn from Doug (or Bill for that matter) but clearly I was wrong.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jeff perhaps the price increase is due not to the slab but to our recovering economy.

[calvindog]

Damn fine point, Peter. The stimulus package really did kick in over the past 45 days so perhaps you are right. Perhaps the winner just traded in his car in the Cash for Clunkers program?

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by zork1974

Sorry guys but I would like to politely disagree with your assessment. Josh Gibson was one of the greatest players to ever play the game. With so few cards to collect, those of us who love the Negro Leagues and the history it represents have only a few cards to target for our collections. The card comes from a vintage era and it was published outside of mainstream America. It's aging and it's scarce. Compared to some of the prices we've seen over the years, $14 000 is a drop in the bucket. I would buy one in a heartbeat if I had the chance.

*
*

Sorry Mr Zork, but I would like to politely disagree with your assessment.
I'm also a Cuban, Latino, and Negro League collector that got to see some of them play.
There is no question in my mind that Josh Gibson was one of the greatest players to ever play the game ... no knowledgeable baseball fan will question that.

The real question is the card itself.

It was created three or so years after his playing days, and after his death in 1947.
Like it has already been stated ... it's a tribute card.
The Puerto Rican Toleteros 1950 - 51 set, had that card in it as a tribute to Josh Gibson.

To say that the card is over - rated, is an understatement.

The Leland's pulled a snow job, and some people bought the snow job over a period of time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The hobby is full of popular tribute cards. 33 Goudey Lajoie. 48 Leaf Ruth. Sport Kings Cobb. 69 white letter Mantle. Given that there is NO other card of Josh Gibson even roughly contemporaneous with his career, I think the Toleteros is a great card.

[zork1974]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The hobby is full of popular tribute cards. 33 Goudey Lajoie. 48 Leaf Ruth. Sport Kings Cobb. 69 white letter Mantle. Given that there is NO other card of Josh Gibson even roughly contemporaneous with his career, I think the Toleteros is a great card.

It's like you took the words right out of my mouth. I was going to mention the Lajoie and the Leaf Ruth in my first post (as tribute cards) but I thought those were kind of obvious. I'll own those cards someday as well. I have no problem with tribute cards if they have some significance within the hobby and the Gibson certainly has that.

[Minerscoin]

I agree with Potomac Jack. I also believe the card is over rated. There has to be many more out there waitng to be found.
Mark

[Orioles1954]

I just don't like Tribute cards, no matter where they come from. 1933 Goudey Lajoie, 1949 Leaf Ruth, 1950 Toleteros Gibson.....just not into them.

[Matt]

I don't believe the 33 Goudey Lajoie is popular because of Lajoie collectors - it's because it's the bottleneck card for a tough set - it could be of Hugh Critz and probably carry similar value.

[mikedenero]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

I just don't like Tribute cards, no matter where they come from. 1933 Goudey Lajoie, 1949 Leaf Ruth, 1950 Toleteros Gibson.....just not into them.

I agree 100% with everything you have posted on this thread. I also try to avoid (with few exceptions) cards featuring players during their later years, as such cards often depict an old and/or chubby (fat is too harsh a word) version of the once youthful star. :-)

I would also add (and I bet I will catch a bundle of heat for this) that the '52 Topps Mickey Mantle is also on my list of grossly overrated cards. While it depicts The Mick in his youth, the Mick's face looks distorted (much like the 52 Topps Berra). Furthermore, the image on The Mick's '52 Bowman is much, much better. And in a hobby that is essentially visual ...

[Peter_Spaeth]

I agree on the 52T Mantle. I think it is a very poor depiction of him, and indeed barely resembles him.

[mikedenero]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I agree on the 52T Mantle. I think it is a very poor depiction of him, and indeed barely resembles him.

The person on the card looks more like Biff from Back To The Future than The Mick! Uh oh, Peter; Looks like the Mantle Police will be coming after both of us now!

[sportscardtheory]

If this card is overrated, what is his first and/or best card then?

[mikedenero]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

If this card is overrated, what is his first and/or best card then?

First: '51 Bowman
Best (visually appealing) Mantle cards (in the following order):

1) '52 Bowman (without typical poor register or print defects, of course)
2) '51 Bowman
3) '53 Bowman (but only if the sky is blue (not pinkish) and only if the typical white print dot on Mantle's chin is not present)
4) '54 Stahl-Meyer (or Dan Dee)
5) 1953 Topps or 1956 Topps (depends upon my mood)

[chaddurbin]

can i find this official best mantle card list somewhere? i need 6-10 so i'll know what other mantle cards to buy...

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by mikedenero

First: '51 Bowman
Best (visually appealing) Mantle cards (in the following order):

1) '52 Bowman (without typical poor register or print defects, of course)
2) '51 Bowman
3) '53 Bowman (but only if the sky is blue (not pinkish) and only if the typical white print dot on Mantle's chin is not present)
4) '54 Stahl-Meyer (or Dan Dee)
5) 1953 Topps or 1956 Topps (depends upon my mood)

I mean Josh Gibson.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The Toleteros is the only choice for Gibson, unless you want to jump ahead to a 1974 Laughlin. I think a while back there was some postcard floating around too which sparked a debate as to whether it was a baseball card or not.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The Toleteros is the only choice for Gibson, unless you want to jump ahead to a 1974 Laughlin. I think a while back there was some postcard floating around too which sparked a debate as to whether it was a baseball card or not.

I'd take that rppc over the Toleteros card ANY day of the week...even though some don't consider it a "card".

[mikedenero]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

can i find this official best mantle card list somewhere? i need 6-10 so i'll know what other mantle cards to buy...

Funny! The list is all in my head. . BTW, it is not a "best" list; rather, it is my opinion on which 5 are the most visually appealing (IMHO).

[mikedenero]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I'd take that rppc over the Toleteros card ANY day of the week...even though some don't consider it a "card".

Agreed - with both of your points.

[slantycouch]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I'd take that rppc over the Toleteros card ANY day of the week...even though some don't consider it a "card".

I'd agree with that as well.

[Jewish-collector]

I met the family who won the Toleteros card. I gave them a very big Mazel Tov () when they told me they won it. I thought they got a good deal on it, considering a lower grade version went for more money a few years ago.