ebay finds that PWCC engaged in shill bidding?

[Mitochondria]

Is there a way to block certin Sellers on eBay while searching for items. I often have saved search terms that look for general categories of cards, but I have not seen a method of blocking certain Sellers if they meet search criteria. Thanks

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Nunzio11

That was my thought. I'm sure this is not the publicity and fanfare PWCC was looking for when launching their own platform. Imagine the shenanigans that will go on when bidders no longer have the guise of Ebay protection to fall back on if they feel there were wronged by unethical practices.

This was my first thought. The inmates running the asylum. It’s hard to believe that shilling isn’t so ingrained in the culture there they could have a really hard time running a legit AH, even if they wanted to. The few things I ever bought from them years ago were things I just stumbled upon while browsing Ebay. I can’t see myself ever visiting their site and I doubt I’m the only one.

[mckinneyj]

Originally Posted by Mitochondria

Is there a way to block certin Sellers on eBay while searching for items. I often have saved search terms that look for general categories of cards, but I have not seen a method of blocking certain Sellers if they meet search criteria. Thanks

See https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=258966

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by conor912

This was my first thought. The inmates running the asylum. It’s hard to believe that shilling isn’t so ingrained in the culture there they could have a really hard time running a legit AH, even if they wanted to. The few things I ever bought from them years ago were things I just stumbled upon while browsing Ebay. I can’t see myself ever visiting their site and I doubt I’m the only one.

Anyone who does frequent their site will get exactly what they deserve. I personally will stick with reputable and ethical sources such as LOTG, REA and Hakes.

I believe this sudden sweeping move by eBay was done in an effort to minimize its liability (and culpability) and to distance themselves from PWCC, who is under investigation. Perhaps the FBI had a hand in expediting this drastic action. Based on what we learned from Mastro, it's apparently easier/preferable for Law Enforcement to issue indictments on shill bidding than fraud from card alteration (although I wish they could bring charges for both).

Simply put... Law Enforcement's ability to prove shill bidding (from obtained records) is probably much more cut and dried than proving fraud and criminal intent to deceive.

[maniac_73]

In just happy I dont have to sort through PWCC auctions anymore to find ones at a real price and dont have insane shipping costs to Canada.

[chadeast]

Originally Posted by cannonballsun

The banning of PWCC is a huge and drastic move by eBay, a move that will surely cost them money. As businesses are always driven by the desire to make money, first and foremost, there must be a very compelling reason for them to do it. The only reason that makes sense to me is that the long awaited FBI investigation is coming to a close, and PWCC is going to be hit with Mastro-like charges. EBay wants to separate themselves from PWCC, and that investigation, and those charges.
Of course, this is only my opinion. I have no facts to back this up.
I can't see eBay doing this out of spite because PWCC is going to make their own auction site.

+1 to all. Just the thought of being associated with a federal investigation, even if nothing eventually comes from it, is probably enough for Ebay to punt on the $6 million a year revenue.

[jingram058]

Is there a chance this move by eBay on PWCC has any effect at all on Dean's?

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Is there a chance this move by eBay on PWCC has any effect at all on Dean's?

..I thought "Dean's" already had their own Non-Ebay page on the internet ?

..

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Is there a chance this move by eBay on PWCC has any effect at all on Dean's?

Guessing, but doubtful that Dean's has anywhere near the overall sales volume of PWCC. And from what I have seen, eBay is just one of their many platforms (they also list many of the exact same cards on Amazon too...) - not their main source of revenue.

Yes, they have their own website - and have for years. I think it could be argued they try to get most of their business through that website, because to my knowledge none of Dean's "discount" (sorry, try not to laugh) algorithms work when you are buying single cards of his on eBay.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Wow! Pretty crazy turn of events today. I've read a lot of conspiracy theories so far, some rather comical. I think a few observations are probably worth noting though, if trying to figure out what's actually happening behind the scenes. I'm just speculating and exercising my critical thinking skills though here, so take this with a grain of salt. I don't know anyone on the inside at either company who is in charge of making these decisions.

A few observations:

1 - PWCC has been working on their own separate platform to compete against eBay. Their Premier Auction in July was the first launch of part of their new independent platform. This is just the tip of the iceburg. As they've stated in their response to the eBay letter, they have much bigger ambitions that are soon to launch.

2 - Thus far, eBay has only banned PWCC. They didn't ban Probstein, which has gotten just as much heat on the forums as PWCC regarding this topic.

3 - PWCC's definition of "shill bidding" is perhaps peculiarly worded on their website. "Shill bidding is a bid placed without the intention to honor it - regardless of who placed the bid." https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/faq

4 - I believe it is rather common for many auction houses to expressly allow shill bidding in their TOS (or so I've read)

5 - In the past, eBay has repeatedly demonstrated that they couldn't care less about shill bidding (I recently created a thread on this topic).

6 - Historically, eBay has not taken well to competition over the years, nor criticism. They have bought out numerous start-up auction sites over the years in an effort to maintain their monopoly, and I'm sure everyone here is familiar with the recent news articles about former eBay employees who were recently sentenced to prison for cyberstalking a couple from Massachusetts who published articles criticizing eBay.


What does this all mean? What's actually going on here?

I don't buy for a second that this is eBay's attempt at cracking down on shill bidding. That's bullshit. If eBay wanted to crack down on this, they would have done so a long time ago, and they would have done it from the inside. They are the ones with all of the relevant bidding behavior and user data. Not the sellers. They can easily crack down on shill bidding, but they've chosen not to, likely because it's a project that would take money out of their pockets.

To me, this smells like it's one of two things.
1) The most likely scenario to me is that eBay is pissed off at PWCC because PWCC basically built their brand on eBay's platform and now they think they are big enough that they can just create their own platform to compete against eBay, taking hundreds of millions of dollars of business along with them, so eBay decided to tarnish their brand on their way out the door. Sort of the "you can't quit, you're fired!" approach.
2) The not-so-recent FBI investigation into the sports card market has begun to finally shown its teeth after dragging along for many years in silence, and they are somehow just now knocking on eBay's door, asking for records on PWCC's bidding activity. I find this to be a rather low likelihood though for a multitude of reasons, the least of which is eBay's otherwise couldn't-care-less approach to shill bidding in general. If eBay were feeling heat from the FBI, they would have tightened up shill bidding long before now.

Also note that eBay's wording is rather suspect to me. "Individuals associated with PWCC"... Really? That's the best they could do? Notice what they didn't say. "PWCC is engaged in shill bidding." or "PWCC personnel is engaged with shill bidding." or "PWCC employees have engaged in shill bidding". This email was without question, carefully crafted by eBay's legal team and likely signed off on by the CEO prior to being sent out. This is a strategically worded email. "Individuals associated with PWCC" to me reads as "people who consigned with PWCC", not PWCC employees. It's reads like a cleverly worded lawyer trick that has the intention of misleading its audience into believing that PWCC employees are shill bidding their eBay listings, but is worded just soft enough that if challenged in court (which it will be) they can simply say that they meant the people who consigned with PWCC were doing the shill bidding, not PWCC themselves.

Based on PWCC's response, this came out of left field. If eBay were truly just concerned about shill bidding, they wouldn't have just blindsided one of their top sellers on the entire platform. PWCC sold hundreds of millions of dollars last year alone on eBay. They would have had a meeting with Brentsy to discuss how serious they are about preventing shill bidding at the very least. They would have coordinated on this effort if preventing shill bidding was the goal. And if they had done that already, then this wouldn't have come out of left field for PWCC (which appears to be clearly the case here).

And as far as preventing shill bidding goes, PWCC has actually done far more than eBay or any other consigner I've encountered to combat this. They send you emails warning you to confirm that you intend to actually purchase an item after placing a bid if you haven't bought from them previously (I have this very email in my inbox somewhere). Otherwise they will cancel your bid. You must be vetted by thier finance team in order to participate in their Premier Auctions (I've been through this too), and if you win an item in any of their auctions but don't pay for it, they will ban your account and you won't be able to bid on their aucitons again. These are all steps to prevent shill bidding. What more can you really expect them to do? They are a consignment company. They're not eBay themselves. They don't have access to all the user data and bid history of everyone like eBay does. There's only so much they can actually do to prevent shill bidding. Most of what can be done is and should be eBay's responsibility, not PWCC's.

That said, if it were to come out that PWCC has some top-secret operation in place to where they've hired an army of North Korean hackers to create thousands of fake eBay accounts who shill bid all of their auctions for them, or Brentsy and crew have shill bidding sessions themselves at the office, then that'd be something rather extraordinary, but I highly doubt this is the case. At best, they might have a disagreement on what the definition of "shill bidding" is to begin with. Remember, Brentsy defines a shill bid as a bid with no intention of making payment if you win regardless of who you are or if you have any association with the consigner, whereas maybe eBay thinks it's a bid placed on behalf of the consigner regardless of whether or not they plan to proceed with payment, should they happen to win.

Pretty much agree with all of this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Here's a thought -- PWCC now has more incentive than ever to show high auction prices.

[darwinbulldog]

So what'll happen over the next few months to popular heavily traded pre-war cards, let's say T206s in the $500-$5000 range? Predictions?

A) prices rise because eBay buyers stay on eBay and the supply diminishes while the demand remains
B) prices drop because they were artificially inflated by business practices (legitimate or otherwise) of PWCC
C) nothing much as people continue to set their bids based on recent sales
D) other (?)

I'm thinking maybe the prices were so volatile for the past year it'll be hard to discern the specific effect of PWCC's departure from eBay, but it's gotta have some effect whether or not we can discern what it will have been with any confidence.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by cannonballsun

The banning of PWCC is a huge and drastic move by eBay, a move that will surely cost them money. As businesses are always driven by the desire to make money, first and foremost, there must be a very compelling reason for them to do it. The only reason that makes sense to me is that the long awaited FBI investigation is coming to a close, and PWCC is going to be hit with Mastro-like charges. EBay wants to separate themselves from PWCC, and that investigation, and those charges.
Of course, this is only my opinion. I have no facts to back this up.
I can't see eBay doing this out of spite because PWCC is going to make their own auction site. A business that operates on spite is a very unprofessional business, and all their execs should be canned, if that's what they are doing.
As always, time will tell, but this is a huge move. By the way, I didn't get the email from eBay. I do believe I am on PWCC's email list as I receive email from them all the time.
I did buy one item from PWCC, but I believe it was the only one I ever bought from them. It was an large, ungraded lot of 1962 Jell-O cards. That is my number one collecting interest, so I went for it. I have bid on other items that they have for sale, but I always get outbid. Their items generally sell for higher prices than I am willing to pay.

Ebay has operated out of spite for almost their entire existence. Check out what they did to the ECommerceBytes folks.

They're successful despite their own seemingly constant sabotage, because they have a near monopoly on the type of service they provide...are very protective of it...have constantly instituted various forms of price hikes with very little push back...and do this while having to hold zero inventory of their own.

It's just software, servers, mediocre programmers and poorly paid customer service people. It's the type of overhead most companies would kill for, but a service nobody else can really provide. They really came along at the exact right time, for their type of business.

They don't care about shilling or fraud. If they did they would have announced a few very simple policy decisions along with their PWCC take down. They did not.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Here's a thought -- PWCC now has more incentive than ever to show high auction prices.

Good point. If their prices fall off a cliff on their own site, they’ll have (even more) ‘splaining to do.

I find it interesting that 3 things have converged here…Ebay booting PWCC, PWCC launching their own platform, and an FBI investigation heating up. That’s a potent cocktail with a lot of money and potential legal problems at stake.

[marzoumanian]

At the just-held National I bumped into Rob Gough, who as we all know until very recently was the owner of the most expensive baseball card ever sold when he paid $5.2 million for a PSA 9 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle. I found him to be pleasant and very cordial and we talked for about 10 minutes.
If you read the July 2021 SI article about this Mantle card, he is featured VERY prominently. Like the first 10 paragraphs. What I found "weird" is that PWCC, who served as the broker in the sale (it wasn't an auction) and whose vault the card now sits in, wasn't mentioned by name. I wonder why.
This article makes it clear that Gough dove in hard last summer and eBay was one of his sources as he spent millions of dollars on cards. Now this news breaks. Does he pull that Mantle from the vault? Where will he go to buy cards in the future? At the National I recommended to him (and real estate mogul Kurt Rappaport, who was with him), that REA is the best but of course REA isn't on eBay. I also told him to stay away from PWCC because of the ongoing (?) trimming scandal. I know, that advice was too late.
Why does it matter what this young man does going forward? I believe the hobby needs fresh, young faces if it is going to continue to grow. I also believe he has had a positive impact on the hobby and what he does now (in terms of buying more cards) matters. Just my opinion. I want the hobby to thrive long after I am dead and gone. Gough can help.
P.S. I did write a blog about my pleasant encounter with Gough and Rappaport. If you want you can read it at www.markearzoumanian.com and then click on "My Love of the Hobby."

[JeremyW]

To quote Snowman:

"1 - PWCC has been working on their own separate platform to compete against eBay."

Seems to me, they will now be competing against many reputable, trusted, & established online auction houses.

Time will tell, I guess.

[1954 topps]

PWCC already has their own platform for selling and they've already established themselves as the largest auction house in the business. People will swarm to their site every auction like they always do because collectors be crazy. Regardless of shill bidding or not people will still buy from them in future auctions because they have it all. If you're worried about shill bidding just pick a max number in your head and don't go over it just like any other auction.

I believe eBay was already aware PWCC has intentions of leaving their platform soon as they've already tested having their own auctions. The fees are high and they can do it in-house for less. So they're mad and throwing them under the bus, probably for good reasons but about a decade late. Gee thanks eBay for trying to portray being the golden child here, you haven't been a partner in crime the whole time at all...bye ebay, you won't be missed. It's not that hard to run this business. Oh Hello Sirius and your weekly auctions!

I've bought from PWCC many times just like the next collector and will continue to do so because they have what I'm looking for. Meanwhile I end up recycling dozens of catalogs every year from all the auction houses that don't have anything to add to my collection.

Examine your cards carefully when you get them regardless of who you're buying from. PWCC or elsewhere, it's your money, you better know what you're getting.

[JeremyW]

Just a guess, but PWCC will lose a large portion of their consignments because they are no longer on Ebay.

[samosa4u]

This is wonderful news! I am so glad that PWCC is leaving eBay! I got sick and tired of looking at those f**king ridiculous Vault prices every single day!

Now, turn this shit up!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gwj...AndTheGangVEVO

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by conor912

Good point. If their prices fall off a cliff on their own site, they’ll have (even more) ‘splaining to do.

I find it interesting that 3 things have converged here…Ebay booting PWCC, PWCC launching their own platform, and an FBI investigation heating up. That’s a potent cocktail with a lot of money and potential legal problems at stake.

And, if they show low prices, the reason to consign to them goes away.

[bnorth]

Can the house bid on their own items in Oregon? Isn't that why several are located in Texas so they can?

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by 1954 topps

PWCC already has their own platform for selling and they've already established themselves as the largest auction house in the business. People will swarm to their site every auction like they always do because collectors be crazy. Regardless of shill bidding or not people will still buy from them in future auctions because they have it all. If you're worried about shill bidding just pick a max number in your head and don't go over it just like any other auction.

I believe eBay was already aware PWCC has intentions of leaving their platform soon as they've already tested having their own auctions. The fees are high and they can do it in-house for less. So they're mad and throwing them under the bus, probably for good reasons but about a decade late. Gee thanks eBay for trying to portray being the golden child here, you haven't been a partner in crime the whole time at all...bye ebay, you won't be missed. It's not that hard to run this business. Oh Hello Sirius and your weekly auctions!

I've bought from PWCC many times just like the next collector and will continue to do so because they have what I'm looking for. Meanwhile I end up recycling dozens of catalogs every year from all the auction houses that don't have anything to add to my collection.

Examine your cards carefully when you get them regardless of who you're buying from. PWCC or elsewhere, it's your money, you better know what you're getting.

Good luck. Solid strategy.....lmao. Yeah, those big auction house auctions really have nothing in them for anyone it appears..... Why even subscribe if you feel that way?

Peace, Mike Papariello

PS Honestly....when you say this "Meanwhile I end up recycling dozens of catalogs every year from all the auction houses that don't have anything to add to my collection."
then people kinda just stop listening to you. Just sayin'

[53toppscollector]

lol REA isn't pussyfooting around. From an email I just received:

DONE WITH THE VAULT? CONSIGN NOW FOR SPECIAL RATES!

We're offering the lowest rates in our history for your Vault consignments! See below for details on this extremely limited-time offer!

For any new consignments originating from a Vault address and committed to REA by September 1, we're offering the following incredible rates:

[Snapolit1]

I think it's human nature to think "hey, those guys probably shill their own auctions and pass things off better than they really are . . . . and that's terrible . . . .but I'm pretty sure that's never been the case with anything I've bought. . . ."

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by 53toppscollector

lol REA isn't pussyfooting around. From an email I just received:

What about their long time consigners ??? What about us? Shouldn’t we get this rate too? Maybe they don’t want my consignments anymore.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by 53toppscollector

lol REA isn't pussyfooting around. From an email I just received:

That's freaking great LOL.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

That's freaking great LOL.

I'd have trouble sleeping tonight if I had a $100,000 card in a vault in Oregon. Just sayin.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Here's a thought -- PWCC now has more incentive than ever to show high auction prices.

Do you believe this incentive would outweigh the competing incentive to avoid shill bidding to whatever extent possible since they are/were under an FBI investigation with a sizeable portion of the community constantly breathing fire down their backs, waiting to catch them for any and every misstep?

To me it seems incomprehensible that PWCC themselves would be actively engaged in any shill bidding activity at any point since the FBI came knocking on their doors. Yes, of course random ebay users and their consignors engage in this activity all the time, but this isn't PWCC's problem to solve. It's ebay's responsibility. I just don't buy for one second that PWCC employees or its owners are actively shill bidding on their auctions. Same with Probstein and other consignment companies. Their consignors shill bid constantly, but that doesn't make them guilty of it too.

Perhaps worth discussing as well though is what defines "shill bidding" to begin with? Is it shill bidding if you have every intention of paying for the item and all the fees that go along with it should you win? PWCC doesn't consider that to be shill bidding, and neither do many/most? other auction houses.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I'd have trouble sleeping tonight if I had a $100,000 card in a vault in Oregon. Just sayin.

I've a ways to go before I'm that type of collector. But agreed.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

It's true that PWCC's money is not very much relative to eBay as a whole. But if the FBI announced that it was pressing charges or investigating eBay for colluding with PWCC on defrauding bidders, that would result in huge and very unwelcome negative publicity that would have a big effect on all of eBay. They certainly want to avoid that, so my guess is that the FBI showed eBay the evidence they have on PWCC, and eBay is scrambling to distance themselves from PWCC and show the Feds that they are not going to tolerate that behavior any more.

I seriously doubt the FBI is showing anyone any evidence in an ongoing investigation.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I just don't buy for one second that PWCC employees or its owners are actively shill bidding on their auctions. Same with Probstein and other consignment companies. Their consignors shill bid constantly, but that doesn't make them guilty of it too.

See the screen shot in post 197. I encourage you to find and read the whole thread whence it came.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I seriously doubt the FBI is showing anyone any evidence in an ongoing investigation.

So, eBay just decided this is a bad business association?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by conor912

Good point. If their prices fall off a cliff on their own site, they’ll have (even more) ‘splaining to do.

How so? Why would this not be the expectation given that fewer buyers would be seeing these auctions now?

Originally Posted by conor912

I find it interesting that 3 things have converged here…Ebay booting PWCC, PWCC launching their own platform, and an FBI investigation heating up. That’s a potent cocktail with a lot of money and potential legal problems at stake.

The FBI investigation is "heating up"? I was unaware of this. Do you have any evidence to support this claim or is this purely conjecture based on the fact that ebay claims to have cut ties with PWCC over "shill bidding"?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

Can I trust PWCC as a business moving forward?
Absolutely. We know trust is built over time and through a consistent experience. It is our hope that we have earned that trust from you and that we will continue to do so with our new platform. We are deeply committed to ensuring the bidding environment you deserve.

Trust us moving forward? You can even trust us in reverse!

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I seriously doubt the FBI is showing anyone any evidence in an ongoing investigation.

Originally Posted by jchcollins

So, eBay just decided this is a bad business association?

There is no scenario where the FBI came to ebay with "the evidence" they have against PWCC in an ongoing criminal investigation. The most they would have done was subpoena specific documents or transaction records. Ebay might try to infer from there whatever they want, but the FBI isn't showing them any evidence whatsoever.

Ebay could have made the decision to cut ties with PWCC for a multitude of reasons. The best we can do is speculate and use our critical thinking skills to try to narrow down which of those reasons are the most likely.

[Johnny630]

I wonder How many people have called to get their cards out of the Pwcc vault?

Optics Look Bad for them very bad…don’t know how well they’re gonna compete with Other Major AH’s that have their own stand alone platforms.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by 53toppscollector

lol REA isn't pussyfooting around. From an email I just received:

Seems to me as though PWCC would have a very strong lawsuit on their hands if ebay in fact does not have proof of PWCC employees shill bidding in their own auctions. If the shill bidders are in fact just consignors or other random eBay accounts, then their accusations are textbook defamatory resulting in real damages to PWCC's bottom line. If this is the case, I expect we will see eBay having to pay PWCC a substantial sum of money in the inevitable lawsuit on the horizon.

However, on the other hand, if eBay can prove that PWCC employees or its ownership are in fact actively shill bidding on their auctions, then PWCC is likely in for some extreme turbulence ahead. Although if this were the case, I have to ask, why wouldn't they just state that in the email rather than using the cryptic "individuals associated with PWCC" engaged in shill bidding? It just doesn't make sense. To me this smells like eBay deliberately trying to tarnish the brand of their newest competitor.

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

From PWCC's site:
Can I still take out a loan through PWCC Capital?
Yes, we would be pleased to consider you for a loan. Contact our Customer Service Team via email or chat to start the process.

I have been expecting the bubble to pop for a while now, but was starting to think it might have just been wishful thinking since I have been effectively priced out of the market for Roberto Clemente and Nolan Ryan rookie cards for a while now. However this quote above from PWCC renews my faith that, at some point soon, the part of the hobby pool that I swim in will come back to me.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I wonder How many people have called to get their cards out of the Pwcc vault?

Optics Look Bad for them very bad…don’t know how well they’re gonna compete with Other Major AH’s that have their own stand alone platforms.

For sure, there's a run on the vault right now. They're definitely panicking.

Their success or failure will all be determined by how smoothly their upcoming weekly auctions run on their own platform. I'm guessing it'll be slow at first but that the hammer prices will still be strong for the vast majority of items. And if their rates are friendly enough to consignors, then they could easily steal a TON of business from ebay. Sellers just want top dollar for their items, reasonable fees, and relatively quick turnaround times. The market as a whole doesn't care about all this drama. They will overlook it in a second if PWCC provides a better selling experience in the end. If PWCC yours to get greedy though, charging something like 11% to compete against ebay's 12%, then they might jump the shark. But if they play it smart, assuming they're not actually guilty of ebay's shill bidding claims, then I think they'll come out ahead. Time will tell. Stay tuned...

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

I have been expecting the bubble to pop for a while now, but was starting to think it might have just been wishful thinking since I have been effectively priced out of the market for Roberto Clemente and Nolan Ryan rookie cards for a while now. However this quote above from PWCC renews my faith that, at some point soon, the part of the hobby pool that I swim in will come back to me.

Hey Jeff,
I have a Ryan Rookie I'll make you a deal on, It's in the Swingin' 60's submission so it may be a few months before it comes back.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Seems to me as though PWCC would have a very strong lawsuit on their hands if ebay in fact does not have proof of PWCC employees shill bidding in their own auctions. If the shill bidders are in fact just consignors or other random eBay accounts, then their accusations are textbook defamatory resulting in real damages to PWCC's bottom line. If this is the case, I expect we will see eBay having to pay PWCC a substantial sum of money in the inevitable lawsuit on the horizon.

However, on the other hand, if eBay can prove that PWCC employees or its ownership are in fact actively shill bidding on their auctions, then PWCC is likely in for some extreme turbulence ahead. Although if this were the case, I have to ask, why wouldn't they just state that in the email rather than using the cryptic "individuals associated with PWCC" engaged in shill bidding? It just doesn't make sense. To me this smells like eBay deliberately trying to tarnish the brand of their newest competitor.

Before PWCC decides to litigate they should remember that discovery is a bitch.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Seems to me as though PWCC would have a very strong lawsuit on their hands if ebay in fact does not have proof of PWCC employees shill bidding in their own auctions. If the shill bidders are in fact just consignors or other random eBay accounts, then their accusations are textbook defamatory resulting in real damages to PWCC's bottom line. If this is the case, I expect we will see eBay having to pay PWCC a substantial sum of money in the inevitable lawsuit on the horizon.

However, on the other hand, if eBay can prove that PWCC employees or its ownership are in fact actively shill bidding on their auctions, then PWCC is likely in for some extreme turbulence ahead. Although if this were the case, I have to ask, why wouldn't they just state that in the email rather than using the cryptic "individuals associated with PWCC" engaged in shill bidding? It just doesn't make sense. To me this smells like eBay deliberately trying to tarnish the brand of their newest competitor.

I doubt PWCC sues. No way it wants all those records to become public. It will come up with some BS rationale for not suing, like it's time to move on.

On the flip side I'd be shocked if ebay sent that message without ample supporting evidence. This isn't some guy making a spontaneous remark, it's a company with a 50 billion dollar market cap.

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I wonder How many people have called to get their cards out of the Pwcc vault?

Optics Look Bad for them very bad…don’t know how well they’re gonna compete with Other Major AH’s that have their own stand alone platforms.

I can tell you for sure at least 1 person. Currently "pending". I actioned this last night after I heard the news. I'll update as soon as I have them back in my hands! Not many cards at all thank god!

Peace, Mike

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Before PWCC decides to litigate they should remember that discovery is a bitch.

So is having a losing hand, which I suspect they have.

They will also have difficulty proving damages, assuming they don't also have a breach of contract claim which I am guessing they don't. If they lose business from this point forward, far more likely attributable to not being on ebay than to an email message saying they shill bid.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Do you believe this incentive would outweigh the competing incentive to avoid shill bidding to whatever extent possible since they are/were under an FBI investigation with a sizeable portion of the community constantly breathing fire down their backs, waiting to catch them for any and every misstep?

To me it seems incomprehensible that PWCC themselves would be actively engaged in any shill bidding activity at any point since the FBI came knocking on their doors. Yes, of course random ebay users and their consignors engage in this activity all the time, but this isn't PWCC's problem to solve. It's ebay's responsibility. I just don't buy for one second that PWCC employees or its owners are actively shill bidding on their auctions. Same with Probstein and other consignment companies. Their consignors shill bid constantly, but that doesn't make them guilty of it too.

Perhaps worth discussing as well though is what defines "shill bidding" to begin with? Is it shill bidding if you have every intention of paying for the item and all the fees that go along with it should you win? PWCC doesn't consider that to be shill bidding, and neither do many/most? other auction houses.

Got to have your name in your post brutha! Read rules at the top regarding opinions

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I just don't buy for one second that PWCC employees or its owners are actively shill bidding on their auctions. Same with Probstein and other consignment companies. Their consignors shill bid constantly, but that doesn't make them guilty of it too.

Originally Posted by conor912

See the screen shot in post 197. I encourage you to find and read the whole thread whence it came.

I've read it. Multiple times. It's not damning at all. This is another classic example of internet trolls passing around a nothing burger while painting it with a scarlet letter and proclaiming fraud. Then perpetuating this supposed "fraud" later as evidence of further claims.

The response given by PWCC in regards to this conversation is perfectly reasonable. The card in question didn't even belong to the person doing the bidding per PWCC. The conversation was had because PWCC had received complaints regarding Cortney DeLorme's "string bidding" activity. This is where someone places a string of minimum bids over and over, increasing the bid count with no intention of actually becoming the high bidder on an item. The card in question was worth many thousands of dollars, yet Cortney DeLorme was just string bidding it for who knows what reason. Brent communicated to DeLorme that he had received complaints about what looked like fishy behavior or shill bidding. This is also evident by Brent's comment in the screen shot where he says "Let's not play games here", implying that DeLorme knew exactly what he was doing. Brent was effectively telling him to just take the high bid rather than string bidding. Could he have worded it better? Could he have just banned DeLorme outright instead? Sure. But it wasn't DeLorme's card and it's quite clear from the screenshot itself that Brent was not happy about this bidder's behavior. Telling him to "take the high bid" on a card that was currently sitting at less than half of it's value has zero effect on the selling price.

This is clearly not a conversation where Brent is encouraging someone to shill bid on their own card. You simply cannot explain the "let's not play games here" line if it were. PWCC's response makes perfect sense here (https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=14599705). Yet everyone seems to want to ignore it and continues propogating this screenshot for years to come pretending as though it were something else. I don't play that game though, and neither should you.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Got to have your name in your post brutha! Read rules at the top regarding opinions

I am not slandering or disparaging any person or company. We're simply discussing how to interpret a letter and recent events in the hobby. If I have claims to make against these companies, accusing them of criminal behavior, then I will put my name in the post. But I'm not posting my name publicly just to discuss generic recent public events that everyone else has the same access to and knowledge of.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I am not slandering or disparaging any person or company. We're simply discussing how to interpret a letter and recent events in the hobby. If I have claims to make against these companies, accusing them of criminal behavior, then I will put my name in the post. But I'm not posting my name publicly just to discuss generic recent public events that everyone else has the same access to and knowledge of.

Not my rules

If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. Enjoy!

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[Seven]

I've read through this thread, most of what I was going to say has been said by a few posters on the board, my general observations though are that:

If this is the true reason eBay is investigating PWCC for then I am all for it. It's been speculated a lot that PWCC along with Probstein have shill bid in their auctions to inflate the final dollar amount. Hopefully eBay has enough proof going forward to take down the rest of it.

I have no idea how this effects the card market. I've been saying eventually prices have to stabilize as they can't possible go up forever, but that could be more wishful thinking on my part than anything. While my purchases from eBay nowadays are few and far between at this point, for cards at least, It will be interesting to see how the next year shapes up for collecting, along with what the auction scene will look like, a year from now.

[BCauley]

Originally Posted by Snowman

There is no scenario where the FBI came to ebay with "the evidence" they have against PWCC in an ongoing criminal investigation. The most they would have done was subpoena specific documents or transaction records. Ebay might try to infer from there whatever they want, but the FBI isn't showing them any evidence whatsoever.

Ebay could have made the decision to cut ties with PWCC for a multitude of reasons. The best we can do is speculate and use our critical thinking skills to try to narrow down which of those reasons are the most likely.

Just another thought, but if the FBI asked eBay questions, it could likely be understood where they are headed and thus eBay cut ties. A lot of questions agents ask they already know the answer to.


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