Conservation vs restoration defined by other genres of collectibles

[Goudey77]

I’ll post it again. Very informative CGC interview exposing the possibilities of defining conservation and restoration.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5j0mQYpy8

[irv]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

I’ll post it again. Very informative CGC interview exposing the possibilities of defining conservation and restoration.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5j0mQYpy8

Fairly new here, constantly praising PWCC? Nah, your not a plug for Brent at all.
I'm not really sure what makes others think you are?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

My point is that TPG’s like PSA as you pointed out could use some changes to the way they define, address and label these various scenarios.
While I appreciate a good old “restored” T206 Wagner slab, it’s archaic in comparison to what CGC has done so far.

I don’t want to repeat myself I just want to make it a point that we could learn from other sectors of collectibles.

Watch the CGC interview you’d be amazed at their openness and knowledge on the matter. Card TPG’s are very tight lipped and seem to take every incident case by case. There is no clear line in the sand. Thus a need for a stance and tenets of sort like PWCC has done. Crap on the idea all you want but someone needs to be a voice if TPG’s won’t speak up.

See it's posts like this that make one question your motives. You view PWCC as some sort of savior. Many of us view them as a company that's trying to spin their less than ethical actions of the past. Does that mean we find the TPG's blameless, of course not, but to basically say that PWCC is the solution to the TPG problem is...

...not sure I have the words.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Good post jhcollins!

Seems these challenging ideas/questions on threads are mostly click bait for the naysayers.

So I Appreciate your articulated thoughts on the subject.

Thank you. By the way I appreciate your insight on the comic hobby. I have always found grading of any type "interesting"; it's almost like a sub-hobby of mine. Instead of going after only cards in high grade - as is affordable I like to get examples of cards in all grades above poor and fair - in a better attempt to understand granding norms and trends. Even if some of the standards applied to comic books don't really translate to cards, it's great stuff to read about.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

All this talk about hobby practices maturing to be more like comics and the insuation that being more accepting of alterations will also make it easy to properly identify them is great, but I think this is all pointless if there is not also a market at large who would not only be accepting of this, but demanding of it - and at least right now I don't think that is the case. Grading companies were started ostensibly because of alteration problems and things going undetected in the 1990's right? The difference is that they were just supposed to reject such cards and not attempt to understand what had been done to them. The result, rather quickly was TPG's establishing incentives for cards that not only were not altered, but were in super-high grade. By going down this road so quickly, they made truly altered cards ultra-black sheep, and quickly - it would seem at least thoretically - lost any true incentive not to try to cut corners so they would be able to avoid giving out these designations. Because obviously continually doing so, even if it was the right thing to do - is going to be bad for your business as a TPG.

So what are we saying, the goal is the same as it was earlier to prevent / crack down on alterations - but um, it didn't work the first time, so now we need to go back and embrace a certain degree of permissable alterations so we can get better about calling things out? Again, ok - but I don't think outside of concerned true collectors on forums like this one - we likely aren't anywhere near a majority - that anyone will give much of a damn. It's not going to be a market reality. As we've said before, the vast majority of the deep-pocketed investing and even high-end collecting world is going to continue along an ends-justify-the-means trail and be happy with their ridiculously high-graded vintage cards in slabs whether or not they were trimmed or restored or what have you.

So at the end of the day until we see a dramatic shift in the overall marketplace, I think that TPG's are useful tools, only - upon which not nearly so much weight should be assigned. It's an opinion of an examination, nothing more. Notice that while we lobby for change, be it with the TPG's or an entity like PWCC - we all still seem to approach the matter of slabbing as a "finality." Not just something that happened to the card in it's lifespan and was then moved-on from. No buddy, this card is now a PSA 8 for life! Hehe. You've got to admit we do that here, too. If we could somehow get around that in the honest discussion of what types of weight to assign to what issues, I think the hobby would be a lot better off.

always appreciate your viewpoint JC

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

See it's posts like this that make one question your motives. You view PWCC as some sort of savior. Many of us view them as a company that's trying to spin their less than ethical actions of the past. Does that mean we find the TPG's blameless, of course not, but to basically say that PWCC is the solution to the TPG problem is...

...not sure I have the words.

Does everyone on here have an agenda or motive? I certainly do not.
I have opinions on specific topics that may align with what PWCC is trying to convey in their communication. If your opinions differ then cool. We should still be able to get along without questioning motives. It is what it is.

Public shaming, defamatory remarks and accusations on a message board is not cool. If you want to be vocal about something take it offline and talk it through with whomever you have a problem with. You might even have a new perspective after the conversation.

Man up and defend your position. Not hide behind a message board moniker.

If anyone wants to reach out and speak to me on subjects i'd be happy to talk. I'm an open book and have no agenda other than talk hobby, meet new people who share the same interest.

If any of you are on Instagram you can look me up @Goudey77 which I use strictly for hobby related networking. DM me or call me. I'd like to chat it up with those who are most passionate about subjects like this.

[Goudey77]

My response is not directed toward Aquarian Sports. Just a general response to the question about my motive. Which many of you have pointed out.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

My response is not directed toward Aquarian Sports. Just a general response to the question about my motive. Which many of you have pointed out.

I don't questions your motives, I just question what the HELL you could be thinking in regards to standing up for a well known and now documented fraud artist? So deep in bed with several guys that spin doctored cards through him back and forth, flip, cut, flip Conserve, cut flip REPEAT until the cards look like Mini's.

We don't agree that'e true. You should really try one small thing...OPEN YOUR EYES...if you look hard enough maybe you can see it also.

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

I don't questions your motives, I just question what the HELL you could be thinking in regards to standing up for a well known and now documented fraud artist? So deep in bed with several guys that spin doctored cards through him back and forth, flip, cut, flip Conserve, cut flip REPEAT until the cards look like Mini's.

We don't agree that'e true. You should really try one small thing...OPEN YOUR EYES...if you look hard enough maybe you can see it also.

So what are you doing about it Chuck?
Besides chiming in on the internet message boards? Do you get a kick out of convincing people to side with you?

Reminds me of Antifa groups. Lots of public shaming. If you arent with us you are the enemy mentality.

I sense there is a bit of that going on here on the net54 crowd. Chuck do you have a motive?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

So what are you doing about it Chuck?
Besides chiming in on the internet message boards? Do you get a kick out of convincing people to side with you?

Reminds me of Antifa groups. Lots of public shaming. If you arent with us you are the enemy mentality.

I sense there is a bit of that going on here on the net54 crowd. Chuck do you have a motive?

Chuck seems to be pretty firmly against fraud in the hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

One man's fraud is another man's evolution.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

So what are you doing about it Chuck?
Besides chiming in on the internet message boards? Do you get a kick out of convincing people to side with you?

Reminds me of Antifa groups. Lots of public shaming. If you arent with us you are the enemy mentality.

I sense there is a bit of that going on here on the net54 crowd. Chuck do you have a motive?

PWCC has 7,769 active listings at this moment. The reality is there are way more people like you that have had positive dealings with them and will continue to bid on their auctions.

There are plenty of corporations that have taken social stances that I don't agree with but it doesn't stop me from shopping there.

Someone doesn't have to agree with all of the decisions that Brent and crew are making to still be a customer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

PWCC has 7,769 active listings at this moment. The reality is there are way more people like you that have had positive dealings with them and will continue to bid on their auctions.

There are plenty of corporations that have taken social stances that I don't agree with but it doesn't stop me from shopping there.

Someone doesn't have to agree with all of the decisions that Brent and crew are making to still be a customer.

Yes but that doesn't really prove much, people would bid in an ISIS auction if it was a card they needed.

[frankbmd]

I was born near Oswego, ...............New York. Do I get a sticker?

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes but that doesn't really prove much, people would bid in an ISIS auction if it was a card they needed.

I agree.

There are so many posts about this current scandal predicting their demise and PSA's and people are just fooling themselves.

I am not in favor of everything PWCC is doing but it doesn't change the fact that they are the most powerful seller in the entire hobby at this point.

In reality it is their's to lose.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I agree.

There are so many posts about this current scandal predicting their demise and PSA's and people are just fooling themselves.

I am not in favor of everything PWCC is doing but it doesn't change the fact that they are the most powerful seller in the entire hobby at this point.

In reality it is their's to lose.

Yeah people especially on BO are a bit giddy to say the least. Shorting CLCT stock and such. I'd like to see some constructive change and especially deterrence of card doctoring and enabling, as well as improvement in grading, but I don't think it's apocalypse now.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah people especially on BO are a bit giddy to say the least. Shorting CLCT stock and such. I'd like to see some constructive change and especially deterrence of card doctoring and enabling, as well as improvement in grading, but I don't think it's apocalypse now.

CLCT cleared the number we discussed and is into the gap and the stock is 11% higher plus it went ex dividend since this ordeal started. The small caps or IWM are breaking down yet this is making new highs daily. The company has gained close to 20 million in market cap. The charts suggest it is going higher. Obviously time will tell but this ordeal is not going to be anywhere close to as big as what people on BO are hoping for. The backlog of cards is the highest in company history at over 700,000.

https://www.stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=clct


I think everyone would like to see things clean up some but this hobby has dealt with fraudsters way before I bought my first pack of cards in 1985. Most of us just know it is out of our control and we just have to do the best we can while we swim with sharks.

[drcy]

An interesting situation, that would have a practical effect, is if there were enough problems with fakes that eBay banned the seller.

That's a situation where collector complaints and chatboard evidence would have material effect.

Another situation would be if, believing the seller was knowingly submitting altered cards, PSA stopped grading cards for them. That would also be a good PR stance of PSA standing up against the issue.

If either of both of those situations happened that would be a hobby-shaking sign of real powers that be taking the issue seriously and doing something of material effect.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

CLCT cleared the number we discussed and is into the gap and the stock is 11% higher plus it went ex dividend since this ordeal started. The small caps or IWM are breaking down yet this is making new highs daily. The company has gained close to 20 million in market cap. The charts suggest it is going higher. Obviously time will tell but this ordeal is not going to be anywhere close to as big as what people on BO are hoping for. The backlog of cards is the highest in company history at over 700,000.

https://www.stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=clct


I think everyone would like to see things clean up some but this hobby has dealt with fraudsters way before I bought my first pack of cards in 1985. Most of us just know it is out of our control and we just have to do the best we can while we swim with sharks.

The volume of course is part of the problem -- they're obviously putting a premium on speed over accuracy because otherwise the backlog gets even worse -= but from their perspective it may be the right tradeoff.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by drcy

An interesting situation, that would have a practical effect, is if there were enough problems with fakes that eBay banned the seller.

That's a situation where collector complaints and chatboard evidence would have material effect.

Another situation would be if, believing the seller was knowingly submitting altered cards, PSA stopped grading cards for them. That would also be a good PR stance of PSA standing up against the issue.

If either of both of those situations happened that would be a hobby-shaking sign of real powers that be taking the issue seriously and doing something of material effect.

I am sure PSA has a list. But it's not a company that is going to talk about it.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Well, this entire conversation has evolved a bit since it first started. Martin, you've done a wonderful job of deflecting the conversation away from PWCC knowingly selling altered cards and working with card doctors and to TPGs needing to do what they have proven they can't. Let's remember that this started because Brent decided he was going to play card God and change the definition of alteration. And folks on BO showing how he sells cards that get consigned back to him after they have been altered and passed through a TPG. Why? Because TPGs suck at their job of course. We all agree to that. The problem is what PWCC is doing, not that TPGs can't tell an alteration when they see one. You're constant defense of PWCC is what a lot of us don't understand and why there are so many folks here questioning your motives. You said you don't have any motives. I call BS on that statement. If you didn't have motives you wouldn't have started this thread in the wake of the other threads already rolling. I like that you have an opinion about TPGs needing to do a better job. And I can talk to you about that without throwing out insults. I'm not trying to put you down here, just trying to explain why you're getting so much backlash. Keep up your fight against the TPGs Martin. But realize what else is going on other than how they suck and we all need to mature as a hobby. Remember what started this.

Andy Huntoon

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Well, this entire conversation has evolved a bit since it first started. Martin, you've done a wonderful job of deflecting the conversation away from PWCC knowingly selling altered cards and working with card doctors and to TPGs needing to do what they have proven they can't. Let's remember that this started because Brent decided he was going to play card God and change the definition of alteration. And folks on BO showing how he sells cards that get consigned back to him after they have been altered and passed through a TPG. Why? Because TPGs suck at their job of course. We all agree to that. The problem is what PWCC is doing, not that TPGs can't tell an alteration when they see one. You're constant defense of PWCC is what a lot of us don't understand and why there are so many folks here questioning your motives. You said you don't have any motives. I call BS on that statement. If you didn't have motives you wouldn't have started this thread in the wake of the other threads already rolling. I like that you have an opinion about TPGs needing to do a better job. And I can talk to you about that without throwing out insults. I'm not trying to put you down here, just trying to explain why you're getting so much backlash. Keep up your fight against the TPGs Martin. But realize what else is going on other than how they suck and we all need to mature as a hobby. Remember what started this.

Andy Huntoon

Andy, I really appreciate your feedback. If I had a motive it is to challenge the system and deliver a message to folks. Throw out ideas and let this boards knowledge serve as a think tank of sorts.

In my mind when I do a root cause analysis it comes down to the TPG.
I think most of us can agree to that. But general census is to give them a free pass because they appear too big of an entity to care about our issues.
If we live and die by the grades then the name on those slabs should take responsibility.

That's why efforts like PWCC tenets and redefining conservation vs restoration is a conversation that needs to happen at the TPG level. I don't think anyone is above it all and be the "card god". But it takes some very significant circumstances in addition to influential people to get something to happen. That is my only reason on giving PWCC the benefit of the doubt here. Maybe they can take the lead and perhaps doing something good from it.

I brought a very specific example with CGC because they have virtually removed this problem from the comic industry. I still think the solution to most of this can be accomplished if card TPG's does something similar to CGC.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Based on all that's been exposed on Blowout, and what I know and have seen and can intuit, I'll look to a different leader, thank you.

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Based on all that's been exposed on Blowout, and what I know and have seen and can intuit, I'll look to a different leader, thank you.

That's the problem Peter. Who's doing something about it? Who's leading? Some guys on Blowout?

If no one reaches out and makes progress with the TPG's and PWCC's of the world then all that investigative work is wasted time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

That's the problem Peter. Who's doing something about it? Who's leading? Some guys on Blowout?

If no one reaches out and makes progress with the TPG's and PWCC's of the world then all that investigative work is wasted time.

Not if it spurs or assists law enforcement, civil suits, etc.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Based on all that's been exposed on Blowout, and what I know and have seen and can intuit, I'll look to a different leader, thank you.

The phrase is "The fox guarding the henhouse."

[Peter_Spaeth]

The solution to pervasive fraud is not to redefine fraud. In my opinion.

[drcy]

"What kind of a topsy-turvy world do we live in, where heroes are cast as villains, brave men as cowards?"-- George Costanza from the classic Seinfeld scene

[Peter_Spaeth]

The world has gone mad today

And good's bad today,

And black's white today,

And day's night today,

Cole Porter

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The solution to pervasive fraud is not to redefine fraud. In my opinion.

Touche!

[Goudey77]

I've had several folks reach out to me here and on IG supporting my views.
It might be a quiet group but they are out there.

Have a great and safe holiday weekend everyone!

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

I've had several folks reach out to me here and on IG supporting my views.
It might be a quiet group but they are out there.

Have a great and safe holiday weekend everyone!

Not friendster or Myspace? I must be out of the loop

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Not friendster or Myspace? I must be out of the loop

Good one Ted. Glad you chimed in. Happy Friday

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Good one Ted. Glad you chimed in. Happy Friday

No DM sent, Happy long weekend in Lake Oswego

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

I've had several folks reach out to me here and on IG supporting my views.
It might be a quiet group but they are out there.

Have a great and safe holiday weekend everyone!

Any of them federal prosecutors or FBI agents? Guessing not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Any of them federal prosecutors or FBI agents? Guessing not.

lolz

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Any of them federal prosecutors or FBI agents? Guessing not.

Of course not. Everyone knows they are too busy on Snapchat

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

I've had several folks reach out to me here and on IG supporting my views.
It might be a quiet group but they are out there.

Have a great and safe holiday weekend everyone!

Say hi to Brent for us!

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

So what are you doing about it Chuck?
Besides chiming in on the internet message boards? Do you get a kick out of convincing people to side with you?

Reminds me of Antifa groups. Lots of public shaming. If you arent with us you are the enemy mentality.

I sense there is a bit of that going on here on the net54 crowd. Chuck do you have a motive?

Nothing but posting what I know and how I feel about it. I'm also not buying anymore from PWCC, I'm also considering not buying another card PERIOD. That's what I'm doing. I don't really give a S*** if you agree with me or not. I have no motives. If I did I would be doing what you're doing. I don''t care about my lousy 100K collection. It means very little to me if I have to be honest. The truth however is golden and standing up with your pocket book is what I am all about. I have boycotted much bigger companies than this piss ant PWCC, believe me. That's my motive Martin, not to inflame you like a pack of hemorrhoids.

[perezfan]

If Leon is still looking for someone to speak at the net54 Banquet in Chicago, perhaps Chuck could do some stand-up. I know I would be entertained!

[irv]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I agree.

There are so many posts about this current scandal predicting their demise and PSA's and people are just fooling themselves.

I am not in favor of everything PWCC is doing but it doesn't change the fact that they are the most powerful seller in the entire hobby at this point.

In reality it is their's to lose.

And how did they get to be the most powerful seller in the entire hobby? If you take away all the doctored PSA 10's, Beckett 9.5's-10's and Pristines that have currently been discovered, and with more to likely to come yet, that they have sold, I would almost guarantee you they wouldn't be any larger than your average ebay seller.
These types of cards, as you should know, attract a large, broad audience and people/collectors/investors are drawn to the place(s) that sell these.

It's real simple, imo. This was the end goal of PWCC. Get to be the largest, most well known seller on Ebay by doing whatever it takes to get there and watch the money roll in.

[calvindog]

Just like Mastro.

[marzoumanian]

That's funny, Jeffrey. Thank you for making me laugh. I can't believe the passion here. Is it time to call a time out yet? Peace and love. Peace and love.

[calvindog]

Mark, you better finish your Mastro work and make some time for PWCC!

[Republicaninmass]

How about Disclosure vs. Concealment as defined by a court of law? The evidence is just sickening

[Goudey77]

I know...beating a dead horse these past few days. But I think it’s good we talk amongst our community about these definitions. But can we do it constructively?

The way I see it our hobby is in a vulnerable spot, growing pains of sorts, in a phase where these restored cards are going undetected by TPG’s and being sold to the community.

I’m a longtime comic book collector as well. I see similar parallels happening here that something the comic book industry went through years ago. Now with CGC recognizing conservation and restoration it’s openly discussed with clear definitions.

If TPG’s like SGC and PSA someday decide to do what CGC did then we’ll all look back at this time as a game changer in regards to this subject.

What’s happening here is that there are now attempts to “evolve” the sports card hobby to similar collectible genres. Could this mean conservation and restoration is legitimately recognized by the TPG. Grading such cards under a different label?

I remembered seeing this video and think it would be helpful to those who want to actually invest some time into the subject of conservation and restoration in collectibles.
Guests appear to be from CGC and much more knowledgeable on the subject than anyone who has publicly spoken about this on behalf of the sports card hobby.
It’s a long interview but touched on very specific points.

For those who have been most vocal about this topic I’ll tap you on the shoulder and ask that you watch this interview.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5j0mQYpy8

I know the ethical question these days is about knowingly selling altered cards. But what happens if SGC or PSA follows every other collectibles industry who has clearly defined restoration? Grades under a “restored” flip..Will that satisfy the collectors here and put the subject to rest?

[drcy]

I know the ethical question these days is about knowingly selling altered cards. But what happens if SGC or PSA follows every other collectibles industry who has clearly defined restoration? Grades under a “restored” flip..Will that satisfy the collectors here and put the subject to rest?

Besides using the argument "Since restored cards are worth less than unaltered cards, no one would try to sneak a restored past the grader," explain how that would that put the subject to rest?

Upon second thought, nevermind.

[Goudey77]

DRCY, I’ll get back to you when I’m back from vacation.
I couldn’t help myself by reposting the original point I had.

Short answer you have clear definitions and no grey area like we have now. Perhaps TPG’s will put more focus on being an expert of conservation and restoration. Per CgC graders in the video I posted they seem to have it figured out.

No grey area then we can rest knowing a TPG finally really addressed and
Acknowledged this topic in the new modern era.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

DRCY, I’ll get back to you when I’m back from vacation.
I couldn’t help myself by reposting the original point I had.

Short answer you have clear definitions and no grey area like we have now. Perhaps TPG’s will put more focus on being an expert of conservation and restoration. Per CgC graders in the video I posted they seem to have it figured out.

No grey area then we can rest knowing a TPG finally really addressed and
Acknowledged this topic in the new modern era.

I have now seen enough to personally convince me that fraud is being committed on a daily, if not hourly, basis. So I'm out. I've been out for a couple of weeks. Missed some cards high on my want list, but I didn't want them at that price and "condition," whatever that condition actually was. When enough other people decide to do the same thing, maybe it will have an impact. Until then, it won't. I get that stuff still trumps all for most.

If the feds come in, it will speed up the exodus. Until then, not so much. I get that. But, and let me stress this, PWCC is doing NOTHING GOOD for the hobby by committing what IMO is rampant fraud and then trying to justify it by "redefining" what fraud is. I'm a lawyer. I do fraud cases. I know how fraud is legally defined. That new PWCC "definition" doesn't work for me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I have now seen enough to personally convince me that fraud is being committed on a daily, if not hourly, basis. So I'm out. I've been out for a couple of weeks. Missed some cards high on my want list, but I didn't want them at that price and "condition," whatever that condition actually was. When enough other people decide to do the same thing, maybe it will have an impact. Until then, it won't. I get that stuff still trumps all for most.

If the feds come in, it will speed up the exodus. Until then, not so much. I get that. But, and let me stress this, PWCC is doing NOTHING GOOD for the hobby by committing what IMO is rampant fraud and then trying to justify it by "redefining" what fraud is. I'm a lawyer. I do fraud cases. I know how fraud is legally defined. That new PWCC "definition" doesn't work for me.

According to their ad, they've been "leading the trading card marketplace since 1998." One hopes that these current issues don't go back that far, or I can only imagine the number of affected cards out there. Then again, I know for a fact that the relationship that seems most concerning on the vintage side is a very long term one.

We also need to bear in mind that there are many card doctors out there, although likely they have left less of a paper trail.