OT: Who would you put on your sports Mt. Rushmore. This is harder than it sounds...

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What don't you understand? By his third season, very early in his career, he had 67 receptions and a very respectable 10 yard average, similar to the rest of his career. Sorry the facts don't fit your narrative.

You still don't get it. Yep, you keep researching Welker and editing your posts after the fact when you look up more stats and numbers because you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

Just quit replying so the thread can continue.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

You still don't get it. Yep, you keep researching Welker and editing your posts after the fact when you look up more stats and numbers because you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

Just quit replying so the thread can continue.


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You're very convincing. I am impressed.

[jason.1969]

Here's a headline of the future:

"Billionaire sports fan creates Mt Rushmore of sports greats; Jordan sues over use of his likeness."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

You still don't get it. Yep, you keep researching Welker and editing your posts after the fact when you look up more stats and numbers because you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

Just quit replying so the thread can continue.


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You are the idiot who said Welker was a flop everywhere before Brady. I showed you that by his third season he had very respectable numbers. 67 catches is not a "flop" by anyone's standards. Which is surely why NE was interested in him. Respond on the merits.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You are the idiot who said Welker was a flop everywhere before Brady. I showed you that by his third season he had very respectable numbers. 67 catches is not a "flop" by anyone's standards. Which is surely why NE was interested in him. Respond on the merits.

Flop may have been harsh, I'll admit that. But he was a special teamer struggling to stay on the roster and almost got cut (again) before his magical 2006 season.

Let me ask you this, do you think Welker would have become a HOF player in Miami? No. Most likely a far cry from it. Brady made him a HOF'er.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Brent, we're certainly on the same page that playing on a great team with a great QB will help any receiver. But of course it can work the other way too, a great receiver can improve any QB. So it's really hard to say in almost any case who made who better. I suspect Welker was on his way to being very very good, but beyond that it's hard to know.

[mrvster]

we can all say these 3 - RUTH, GRETZKY, JORDAN....


the tough one is # 4???????

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Brent, we're certainly on the same page that playing on a great team with a great QB will help any receiver. But of course it can work the other way too, a great receiver can improve any QB. So it's really hard to say in almost any case who made who better. I suspect Welker was on his way to being very very good, but beyond that it's hard to know.

Hard to argue with that my friend, well said. Heck, Welker could have killed it in Miami for all we know. I would say it's more difficult to have a great receiver make a decent qb great. Didn't work with Moss is Oakland, but then again he didn't seem to care nor try lol.

Some players are made from the systems they are put in, and if you remove them from that, they may not succeed.


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[HOF Auto Rookies]

I haven't made a list yet, but I see a lot of Gretzky. Would this be an "American Monument" like we actually have? Or can we include the likes of Gretzky?


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Hard to argue with that my friend, well said. Heck, Welker could have killed it in Miami for all we know. I would say it's more difficult to have a great receiver make a decent qb great. Didn't work with Moss is Oakland, but then again he didn't seem to care nor try lol.

Some players are made from the systems they are put in, and if you remove them from that, they may not succeed.


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Moss did make Cassell look pretty good for a season though.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Moss did make Cassell look pretty good for a season though.

He sure did! Lol


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[rats60]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

I haven't made a list yet, but I see a lot of Gretzky. Would this be an "American Monument" like we actually have? Or can we include the likes of Gretzky?


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You can put anyone you like, but being arguably the best at a minor sport doesn't necessarily make someone top 4. Several people have put Pele on the list.I think he is a better choice. I don't see how you can have a list without Ali, not only was he the best, but his stance against the Vietnam War and international impact after his career are more compelling. Are you going to have a NFL player? Seems difficult to leave out the most popular sport, at least in the US. I went with 1 baseball. 1 basketball, 1 football and 1 other sport.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by rats60

You can put anyone you like, but being arguably the best at a minor sport doesn't necessarily make someone top 4. Several people have put Pele on the list.I think he is a better choice. I don't see how you can have a list without Ali, not only was he the best, but his stance against the Vietnam War and international impact after his career are more compelling. Are you going to have a NFL player? Seems difficult to leave out the most popular sport, at least in the US. I went with 1 baseball. 1 basketball, 1 football and 1 other sport.

For me, I am leaning towards Ali, Ruth for sure. Others, don't know..


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[esd10]

john l Sullivan
ty cobb
jim Thorpe
Michael phelps

[rats60]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

For me, I am leaning towards Ali, Ruth for sure. Others, don't know..


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ESPN's top 4 was Jordan, Ruth, Ali and Jim Brown.

[robw1959]

Very cool! Do you have a link to that source?

The source is a book called "The Home Run Encyclopedia," MacMillan publishing. The information is found on pages 25-26 in a chapter titled, "Longest Home Runs." It should be noted that my memory was a bit faulty in two aspects, one of which is the 25-year time frame. The computerized measuring equipment first instituted in MLB parks in 1982 was broadened to include every ball park by 1991. It was within that 10-year time frame that only one major leaguer, Cecil Fielder, hit a 500-foot homer. His was measured at 502 feet. And the second correction is the year Ruth hit 500+ home runs in all eight A.L. ball parks he visited. It was 1921, not 1920.

Although home run measuring technology wasn't developed until the '80s, we do have enough footage of Ruth's 1921 homers to ascertain with computer analysis the fact that they traveled such historic distances. He was truly a freak!

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by rats60

ESPN's top 4 was Jordan, Ruth, Ali and Jim Brown.

I was thinking close to that, if I were to stick with the 4 major US sports, football is where I'm struggling.


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[robw1959]

[QUOTE=robw1959;1469810]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Very cool! Do you have a link to that source?

The source is a book called "The Home Run Encyclopedia," MacMillan publishing. The information is found on pages 25-26 in a chapter titled, "Longest Home Runs." It should be noted that my memory was a bit faulty in two aspects, one of which is the 25-year time frame. The computerized measuring equipment first instituted in MLB parks in 1982 was broadened to include every ball park by 1991. It was within that 10-year time frame that only one major leaguer, Cecil Fielder, hit a 500-foot homer. His was measured at 502 feet. And the second correction is the year Ruth hit 500+ home runs in all eight A.L. ball parks he visited. It was 1921, not 1920.

Although home run measuring technology wasn't developed until the '80s, we do have enough footage of Ruth's 1921 homers to ascertain with computer analysis the fact that they traveled such historic distances. He was truly a freak!

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by robw1959

Very cool! Do you have a link to that source?

The source is a book called "The Home Run Encyclopedia," MacMillan publishing. The information is found on pages 25-26 in a chapter titled, "Longest Home Runs." It should be noted that my memory was a bit faulty in two aspects, one of which is the 25-year time frame. The computerized measuring equipment first instituted in MLB parks in 1982 was broadened to include every ball park by 1991. It was within that 10-year time frame that only one major leaguer, Cecil Fielder, hit a 500-foot homer. His was measured at 502 feet. And the second correction is the year Ruth hit 500+ home runs in all eight A.L. ball parks he visited. It was 1921, not 1920.

Although home run measuring technology wasn't developed until the '80s, we do have enough footage of Ruth's 1921 homers to ascertain with computer analysis the fact that they traveled such historic distances. He was truly a freak!

Thanks! yes Ruth was something special. Any research or studies done on his bat speed or exit velocity?


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

ESPN's top 4 was Jordan, Ruth, Ali and Jim Brown.

Hard to argue with that, although I don't see Brown as having much cultural importance outside FB (yeah the Dirty Dozen was great but whatever) whereas the others transcended sport. Which is why my fourth was Pele, symbol of the most popular sport in the world.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Hard to argue with that, although I don't see Brown as having much cultural importance outside FB (yeah the Dirty Dozen was great but whatever) whereas the others transcended sport. Which is why my fourth was Pele, symbol of the most popular sport in the world.

I agree, that is why I went with Johnny U. I think he was the guy who spearheaded the NFL's popularity, the Ba be Ruth if the NFL. Vince Lombardi would also be a great choice. I also really like your choice of Pele to give the list a true international flavor.

[steve B]

Very interesting.

I'd pick
Ruth - There will always be arguments that he had areas of his game that were weak. But when it's all set aside his strengths changed baseball almost permanently. Mays may have had better overall skills, but without Ruth making power a major part of the game he might not have ever played. And Baseballs popularity in the years Ruth played changed the country in some subtle ways. Before and even after Ruth there was a stigma to professional sports especially in football and other sports that were big at colleges. It could be said that persists today in the rules of the NCAA. But there's no general thing against pro sports in the mind of the public.

Ali - Not for his stance against the war. But for showing possibly for the first time that an athlete could use his popularity to improve things for people in general. That was the reasoning behind picking all those out of the way places for his fights. And doing it in a way that actually made a bit of difference for the locals.

Pele - A huge star internationally, he spent what should have been the first few years or retirement playing for the Cosmos. His final game against his old club team sold out Giants stadium something that in the US in the 70's should have been impossible for soccer. I think it's fair to say that without Pele there would be very little soccer in the US. Considering how well our teams have done lately especially the womens team, he had a major impact on the sport overall

the last spot I'll leave open, with a few possibilities. I'm expecting them to be more than a bit controversial. Many of the players already mentioned would be worthy choices but I like the less obvious ones.

Lance Armstrong - yes, disgraced and not generally all that good of a guy. But another whose popularity really made a difference for his sport in the US. I'd say probably not because of the cheating, but barely.

Bill France Sr. - founded Nascar. How different things would be without it.

Glen Curtis - Bicycle racer, motorcycle racer, aviation pioneer. Using ailerons instead of wing warping was a major advance just after the Wrights. Planes still use them today, so while his largest contribution was away from sports, He is a sports figure who made a major contribution the world in general.
(Many aviation pioneers and automotive pioneers were bicycle or motorcycle racers. Curtis is simply the most famous of the bunch. The Wrights raced as well, but briefly and weren't much good. They moved on to building bikes quickly)

Howard Cosell - Like him or not- and many didn't - he was a large part of making sports a major part of television. Where is the NFL without TV and Monday Night Football? Where are any of the fringe sports without wide world of sports?

Kraft and/or Bellichick - it's hard to separate the two. I'm becoming more convinced every year that the success isn't about Brady, isn't about who is there or not there. The team did go 11-5 with Matt Cassel as QB. So much of what they do is more about using a players abilities rather than trying to force them into a particular role or style of play. I can't recall any team using so many players who are either late round picks or undrafted. I do see other teams passing over good players in favor of guys they spent bonus money on who can't quite pull themselves together. Without a load of support from an owner a coach can't do that sort of thing. In many cities Bill would have been gone after his first season being 5-11. And to be sure he was a very mediocre coach with Cleveland.
But I also think it's too early for rushmore. If their methods become more the norm in the NFL and if that changes the game, then maybe. If it simply becomes a historic anomaly then no.

There's a rather large crowd of "others" who could be in. People who advanced the equipment in major sports, or altered the public perception of a sport. Many of them perhaps too obscure to be solid nominees.


Steve B

[steve B]

On the Welker discussion, while he was with Miami he totally killed the Pats. Especially on kick returns. I would always wonder why they didn't use him more as a receiver.

It was a very happy day for me when the Pats traded for him.

Steve B

[steve B]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

Theagenes of Thasos

Had to Google that one. Yeah, ok. He would be a possibility for the fourth spot. Hard to argue with a guy being looked on as almost a god

Steve B

[steve B]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

One approach is to honor great players who were also great people. If I were taking my son to Mt Sportsmore, I'd want to be able to tell stories that showcased character rather than just athletic talent. Some candidates--

Jackie Robinson - racial justice
Roberto Clemente - humanitarian
LeBron James - sending thousands of kids to college and funding GEDs for their parents
Bob Feller - First to enlist after Pearl Harbor
Muhammad Ali - Protested unjust war

I would rather my son see these guys as heroes than Jordan or Brady, guys I see who used their fame and wealth to buy toys and feed their egos.

I didn't know that about LeBron. I don't think of him as a candidate for "best ever" but that he funds college and GEDs does change my overall opinion of him.

Steve B

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

Had to Google that one. Yeah, ok. He would be a possibility for the fourth spot. Hard to argue with a guy being looked on as almost a god

Steve B

His 1300 crowns blows away Phelps.

[frankbmd]

Who else has an army?

Arnold Palmer

[timn1]

Jack Johnson
Jackie Robinson
Arthur Ashe
Wilt Chamberlain

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Who else has an army?

Kiss.

[jason.1969]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Who else has an army?

Arnold Palmer

Pat Tillman

[RTK]

Babe Ruth
Jackie Robinson
Jesse Owens
Jimmy Clark or Ayrton Senna
strong consideration for either Gretzky or Bobby Orr

I think athletes that changed the direction of their respective sport or society in general should be recognized not just those with statistical accomplishments.Rushmore has four presidents, a sports Rushmore would definitely need more being there are so may sports.

[oldphil]

Rumor has it that Mt. Rushmore ain't all it's cracked up to be.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by RTK

Babe Ruth
Jackie Robinson
Jesse Owens
Jimmy Clark or Ayrton Senna
strong consideration for either Gretzky or Bobby Orr

I think athletes that changed the direction of their respective sport or society in general should be recognized not just those with statistical accomplishments.Rushmore has four presidents, a sports Rushmore would definitely need more being there are so may sports.

How could I have forgotten Senna ?! He was a tremendous driver and outspoken about his sports problems where others simply kept quiet and cashed their checks. Racing as a whole is far safer because of him.

Steve B

[Louieman]

Babe Ruth
Jackie Robinson
Muhammad Ali

The fourth one I'd leave open for the athlete who basically becomes the Jackie Robinson for the LGBT community.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Louieman

Babe Ruth
Jackie Robinson
Muhammad Ali

The fourth one I'd leave open for the athlete who basically becomes the Jackie Robinson for the LGBT community.

There would be no such thing as a Jackie Robinson for the LGBT community. LGBT is not barred from playing professional sports thus having to play in their own league until they are given the chance.

Every sport has already had a LGBT person play.

If you are worried about inequality in sports look at women. I would love to see if Chelsea Baker ever gets a chance with a pro baseball team.

[Louieman]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

There would be no such thing as a Jackie Robinson for the LGBT community. LGBT is not barred from playing professional sports thus having to play in their own league until they are given the chance.

Every sport has already had a LGBT person play.

If you are worried about inequality in sports look at women. I would love to see if Chelsea Baker ever gets a chance with a pro baseball team.

What I mean is someone who would have the same impact as Jackie did for African-Americans. Yeah there are LGBT athletes, and none are being barred, but as someone who represents the community on the level that Jackie did, I don't think that person has really been in the public eye like that. Sure, Chelsea Baker would be great, or someone similar. And btw, yes LGBT athletes are not barred from sports, but the general culture of sports sure hasn't done much to encourage LGBT athletes

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Louieman

What I mean is someone who would have the same impact as Jackie did for African-Americans. Yeah there are LGBT athletes, and none are being barred, but as someone who represents the community on the level that Jackie did, I don't think that person has really been in the public eye like that. Sure, Chelsea Baker would be great, or someone similar. And btw, yes LGBT athletes are not barred from sports, but the general culture of sports sure hasn't done much to encourage LGBT athletes

Unfortunately, Michael Sam didn't work out. His draft reaction was pretty cool to see.

To add, no opinion on whether it compares to Jackie etc. Just commenting on someone who was a huge headliner for not only sports news, but national news.


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[PolarBear]

Eddie Gaedel

[deucetwins]

Secretariat or American Pharoah should get some discussion. Athletes and non-human.

For the backside (busts): Todd Marinovich, Quincy Carter, Sam Bowie (picked before Jordan).

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by oldphil

Rumor has it that Mt. Rushmore ain't all it's cracked up to be.

You should look In to getting that signed lol

[jbhofmann]

Originally Posted by deucetwins

Secretariat or American Pharoah should get some discussion. Athletes and non-human.

For the backside (busts): Todd Marinovich, Quincy Carter, Sam Bowie (picked before Jordan).

I had a whole paragraph typed up to push Secretariat but deleted it because I thought I'd get laughed at.

There's not a single event that gives me bigger goosebumps than seeing him open up and just run at the Belmont.

[Kalineman]

Ali, Ruth, Jordan and Gretzky

[MattyC]

Cool topic. My interpretation for Rushmore heavily values character and the person's life, whether they are a source of inspiration, iconic status, etc...

Lou Gehrig, Michael Jordan, Joe Montana...and the fictional Rocky Balboa.

Who doesn't love Rocky Those first two movies get me every time!

[SteveMitchell]

Babe Ruth, Jim Thorpe, Bill Russell and Gordie Howe in Baseball, Track & Field-Football, Basketball and Hockey, respectively.

[Yoda]

Tough call, obviously, but I will go with Wilt, Cobb and Bobby Jones.

[Canofcorn]

Ruth
Ali
Jackie Robinson
Jordan

[jason.1969]

Originally Posted by Canofcorn

Ruth
Ali
Jackie Robinson
Jordan

Am not keeping score but this seems to be the winning quartet. I just wish Jordan had some off-court heroics to match his on-court dominance. However, he strikes me as basketball's Cobb, and his primary off-court achievement has been the ushering in of the $150 sneaker era.

[Steve D]

Jesse Owens

Jackie Robinson

Jim Thorpe

Babe Ruth





Steve

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Who else has an army?

Arnold Palmer

Franco Harris


Steve

[Edward]

jim otto
dave dravecky
marv throneberry