New PSA Terms & Conditions: Comp. Damages and Injunctive Relief for Card Doctoring

[4815162342]

PSA updated their Terms & Conditions last week to include the following language regarding card doctoring:

‘12. Doctored and Inauthentic Items; Fraud Prevention and Investigation.

(a) You represent and warrant that any item submitted for any PSA Grading Service is genuine and you have no knowledge and no reasonable basis to believe that the item is a “Doctored” item. You affirm your obligations with respect to Doctored items set forth in these Terms. For purposes of these Terms, “Doctor,” “Doctored” or “Doctoring” means the alteration of the appearance of an item by things such as, but not limited to, trimming, re-coloring, bleaching, power erasing, cleaning, waxing, re-backing or any other form of restoration used to enhance the appearance, condition or content of an item.

(b) You agree that you will not Doctor items or participate in any way in Doctoring items or submitting any items to PSA for grading which you know or have reason to believe have been Doctored in any way, and acknowledge that the determination as to whether an item should be authenticated or graded shall be made solely by PSA in accordance with its standards. You acknowledge that detecting Doctored items is very difficult. You acknowledge that PSA will not authenticate or grade items which, in the judgment of PSA, bear evidence of Doctoring. However, because the determination by PSA to reject such Doctored items will require a review by PSA’s personnel, you will be required to remit, as set forth herein, the standard fee for any such Doctored items that are submitted to PSA. You acknowledge that Doctoring is wrongful and inappropriate activity which is harmful to PSA, and all of your obligations in this Section 12 shall survive termination of these PSA Terms.

…

(d) You agree that PSA would suffer irreparable damages if you were to engage in Doctoring of any item and that PSA is entitled to not only compensatory damages but also preliminary and final injunctive relief for any breach of your obligation not to Doctor items or to submit Doctored items to PSA in violation of your obligations hereunder.’

https://www.psacard.com/termsandconditions

[Leon]

So all cleaning (water and a q tip etc..) is now doctoring? And I am supposed to say that in order to submit to them it is wrong and I won't do it. Nice.

Originally Posted by 4815162342

PSA updated their Terms & Conditions last week to include the following language regarding card doctoring:

‘12. Doctored and Inauthentic Items; Fraud Prevention and Investigation.

(a) You represent and warrant that any item submitted for any PSA Grading Service is genuine and you have no knowledge and no reasonable basis to believe that the item is a “Doctored” item. You affirm your obligations with respect to Doctored items set forth in these Terms. For purposes of these Terms, “Doctor,” “Doctored” or “Doctoring” means the alteration of the appearance of an item by things such as, but not limited to, trimming, re-coloring, bleaching, power erasing, cleaning, waxing, re-backing or any other form of restoration used to enhance the appearance, condition or content of an item.

(b) You agree that you will not Doctor items or participate in any way in Doctoring items or submitting any items to PSA for grading which you know or have reason to believe have been Doctored in any way, and acknowledge that the determination as to whether an item should be authenticated or graded shall be made solely by PSA in accordance with its standards. You acknowledge that detecting Doctored items is very difficult. You acknowledge that PSA will not authenticate or grade items which, in the judgment of PSA, bear evidence of Doctoring. However, because the determination by PSA to reject such Doctored items will require a review by PSA’s personnel, you will be required to remit, as set forth herein, the standard fee for any such Doctored items that are submitted to PSA. You acknowledge that Doctoring is wrongful and inappropriate activity which is harmful to PSA, and all of your obligations in this Section 12 shall survive termination of these PSA Terms.

…

(d) You agree that PSA would suffer irreparable damages if you were to engage in Doctoring of any item and that PSA is entitled to not only compensatory damages but also preliminary and final injunctive relief for any breach of your obligation not to Doctor items or to submit Doctored items to PSA in violation of your obligations hereunder.’

https://www.psacard.com/termsandconditions

[BobbyStrawberry]

This reads to me like they are no longer going to encapsulate trimmed cards at all anymore, which would include ones like this:

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=188543

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Leon

So all cleaning (water and a q tip etc..) is now doctoring? And I am supposed to say that in order to submit to them it is wrong and I won't do it. Nice.

I’m sure this is aimed at the marketed card cleaning solution companies that openly brag online, with pictures and video, about bumping 3 or 4 grades with PSA.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

I’m sure this is aimed at the marketed card cleaning solution companies that openly brag online, with pictures and video, about bumping 3 or 4 grades with PSA.

Kurt's Card Care or whatever it's called, the signature product of the "bro" era of card collecting. Facial hair, backwards ball cap, t shirt, multiple devices, social media accounts and apps, and some Kurt's to make your shiny into 10s. This ain't your father's hobby no more and for those of you over a certain age like me, it ain't yours either.

If only PSA actually took card doctoring more seriously and didn't just pay lip service.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Kurt's Card Care or whatever it's called, the signature product of the "bro" era of card collecting. Facial hair, backwards ball cap, t shirt, multiple devices, social media accounts and apps, and some Kurt's to make your shiny into 10s. This ain't your father's hobby no more and for those of you over a certain age like me, it ain't yours either.

If only PSA actually took card doctoring more seriously and didn't just pay lip service.

You would think with some of the high end altered cards they are paying out big money on they would start taking it WAY more seriously. From reading their new terms and conditions it seemed like they might go after the submitter or is that just my uneducated take.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

You would think with some of the high end altered cards they are paying out big money on they would start taking it WAY more seriously. From reading their new terms and conditions it seemed like they might go after the submitter or is that just my uneducated take.

CU sued some coin dealers years ago for submitting doctored coins. You would think it would be a bad PR move, acknowledging they had been fooled.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

CU sued some coin dealers years ago for submitting doctored coins. You would think it would be a bad PR move, acknowledging they had been fooled.

Opinions vary greatly but for me it would be a great PR move. As a collector it would make me want to use them rather than those that do nothing to the scammers.

On the coin side I was recently watching videos and several coin guys bragged about sending in cleaned coins. Very similar to the card bro videos.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

PSA updated their Terms & Conditions last week to include the following language regarding card doctoring:

‘12. Doctored and Inauthentic Items; Fraud Prevention and Investigation.

(a) You represent and warrant that any item submitted for any PSA Grading Service is genuine and you have no knowledge and no reasonable basis to believe that the item is a “Doctored” item. You affirm your obligations with respect to Doctored items set forth in these Terms. For purposes of these Terms, “Doctor,” “Doctored” or “Doctoring” means the alteration of the appearance of an item by things such as, but not limited to, trimming, re-coloring, bleaching, power erasing, cleaning, waxing, re-backing or any other form of restoration used to enhance the appearance, condition or content of an item.

(b) You agree that you will not Doctor items or participate in any way in Doctoring items or submitting any items to PSA for grading which you know or have reason to believe have been Doctored in any way, and acknowledge that the determination as to whether an item should be authenticated or graded shall be made solely by PSA in accordance with its standards. You acknowledge that detecting Doctored items is very difficult. You acknowledge that PSA will not authenticate or grade items which, in the judgment of PSA, bear evidence of Doctoring.

I joked about this comment on blowout. I'll just boldface it here. PSA is admitting that they can't detect most card doctoring.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I joked about this comment on blowout. I'll just boldface it here. PSA is admitting that they can't detect most card doctoring.

Joked or stated a fact?

[Beercan collector]

Wonder if ‘52 Robinson PSA 02023137 That went from a PSA 8 to
PSA authentic played a small part ?
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=353161

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Beercan collector

Wonder if ‘52 Robinson PSA 02023137 That went from a PSA 8 to
PSA authentic played a small part ?
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=353161

I find the fact that PSA has a guarantee to begin with absolutely baffling. Someone important at Collectors is either remarkably ignorant about the true extent to which cards in their holders are "doctored" or they're incapable of thinking this through to the finish line. There's a reason SGC quietly got rid of their guarantee despite it being literally in the name. PSA will either have to change their stance on card doctoring or they will have to abandon their guarantee, because they can't have both without going belly up.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I find the fact that PSA has a guarantee to begin with absolutely baffling. Someone important at Collectors is either remarkably ignorant about the true extent to which cards in their holders are "doctored" or they're incapable of thinking this through to the finish line. There's a reason SGC quietly got rid of their guarantee despite it being literally in the name. PSA will either have to change their stance on card doctoring or they will have to abandon their guarantee, because they can't have both without going belly up.

Oh please Travis. They've been in business, with the same guarantee, for 33 years. They aren't going belly up and they aren't going anywhere. They just say no and limit their liability. The graders stand behind the grade. Before and after photos are not evidence. Whatever it takes. Ask A.J. Very few people are going to sue them. I promise you they have thought this through, if nothing else all these dire predictions were raised countless times during the "scandal." Joe Orlando was not stupid. Nat Turner is not stupid. Their investors are not stupid.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

PSA updated their Terms & Conditions last week to include the following language regarding card doctoring:

‘12. Doctored and Inauthentic Items; Fraud Prevention and Investigation.

(a) You represent and warrant that any item submitted for any PSA Grading Service is genuine...

Ok, would one of you buyers of opinions explain 12(a) to me, isn't that what you guys are paying them to determine?

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How are they desperate?

Their behaviour neatly summarized below sure fits my understanding of "desperately trying to divorce themselves from legal liability":

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

I'd say the latter. Risk management is part of what I do to for my daily bread. A good part of it is mitigation of liability. I've negotiated a lot of contracts (not a lawyer, FWIW) and I cannot think of a single one where the final issue wasn't either indemnities or the limitation of liability.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yes, PSA, the dominant market player by far, fabulously successful, no foreseeable competition, like it or not the industry standard, is desperate. You know best, I'm sure.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You know best, I'm sure.

Well that makes at least two of us.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think most hobbyists like the slabs as much as investors.

But it is of course dangerous to generalize from one's own experience/perspective.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Hobbyists sell when they want to raise funds for something else, and having a commoditized slab is a huge advantage.

Well one thing's for sure. If I woke up tomorrow morning and found a whole bunch of my cards somehow magically encased in slabs, I'd rid myself of the lot by putting them up for sale immediately. Put my whole collection in slabs, and I'd not only kiss all my cards goodbye by sending them off to an auction house, I'd kiss the hobby goodbye.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by G1911

Why people will pay huge multipliers more for a card that has been signed off on by this incompetent firm will never make any logical sense. The authority need not be competent, there just must be an authority, and even if people know that authority is incompetent, they will continue to buy in and participate on account of that appeal.

Originally Posted by G1911

It's certainly genius. They have built a customer base that is willing to overlook any and all incompetence and is completely fine with their inability to do their basic job, at best. Not many companies have a customer base that expects so little. Difficult to fault them for taking advantage of it. Why their customers do not believe PSA should be competent and keep throwing piles of extra money at cards that bear their approval is where it makes no sense. Taking advantage of this is in PSA's interest, and making money is the entire point for everyone. But almost everyone appears to certainly be aware this all rests on a bedrock of bullshit and these opinions they are throwing cash at are often demonstrably false. If logic or truth ever enters the equation or people's brains, and they question how wise this is and stop, the entire thing collapses.

Well said.

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Their behaviour neatly summarized below sure fits my understanding of "desperately trying to divorce themselves from legal liability":

That isn't desperation. That is just good business.

[G1911]

I would not call it desperation, but the new terms are pretty funny in the admittance that they have a hard time detecting doctored items and that they contradict the claims I have heard here over and over again that some kinds of alteration and cleaning are totally fine with PSA that are included here now.

Why people will pay huge multipliers more for a card that has been signed off on by this incompetent firm will never make any logical sense. The authority need not be competent, there just must be an authority, and even if people know that authority is incompetent, they will continue to buy in and participate on account of that appeal.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I would not call it desperation, but the new terms are pretty funny in the admittance that they have a hard time detecting doctored items and that they contradict the claims I have heard here over and over again that some kinds of alteration and cleaning are totally fine with PSA that are included here now.

Why people will pay huge multipliers more for a card that has been signed off on by this incompetent firm will never make any logical sense. The authority need not be competent, there just must be an authority, and even if people know that authority is incompetent, they will continue to buy in and participate on account of that appeal.

That's the genius of it. The flip has become the commodity. And in a world where the overwhelming majority of sales are now not in person, all the more power it's taken on.