Fraud in the hobby

[packs]

My issue with Maestro stems from an unsuccessful attempt at renting a house in Tuscany

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For 10 points name a song whose lyrics include the word pier.

Blondie did a clever little number called "Love at the Pier", but I doubt that's the one you're looking for?

[moeson]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For 10 points name a song whose lyrics include the word pier.

4th of July (Sandy)

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by packs

My issue with Maestro stems from an unsuccessful attempt at renting a house in Tuscany

Nice. My problem involved being forced to hold a note until it caused the roof of the opera hall to cave in, maiming me. There is video of the incident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4AOKEjbPgA

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by moeson

4th of July (Sandy)

Dammit, I should have gotten that one right away. Huge Springsteen fan.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by moeson

4th of July (Sandy)

And another? Clue -- 60s.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

..be found quality by a jury...

Sadly, yes. The card doctors have been found to be "quality" by many.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Sadly, yes. The card doctors have been found to be "quality" by many.

Man You Make a Couple Spelling mistakes and you get destroyed oh well I’m a easy target I suppose.

Hope y’all enjoyed the laughs at my disposal.

[timzcardz]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For 10 points name a song whose lyrics include the word pier.

Beach Boys of course . . . Surfin' Safari

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by timzcardz

Beach Boys of course . . . Surfin' Safari

Damn I missed that one myself. Still have another in mind.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For 10 points name a song whose lyrics include the word pier.

Pretty sure it's in Surfin' Safari

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Pretty sure it's in Surfin' Safari

Already named above.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I need to refresh threads before I answer lol.

How about Up the Pool by Tull?

[Tao_Moko]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

But when you shake your fist at others and say constantly "how stupid are you guys to stay involved with this bullshit" . . . at the same time that you stay involved with it all . . . that's the part I struggle with . . .

I hear you and don't disagree when it comes to supporting tpg's and auction houses found party to fraud. My collection suffers because I don't pay premiums for graded cards, or bid in most auctions(including many on ebay). Graded cards rarely make it 30 minutes in my possession before being busted. But, passion isn't normally accompanied by complacency. If my Marines and Sailors weren't bitching then something was wrong.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I need to refresh threads before I answer lol.

How about Up the Pool by Tull?

Don't know that one. Still looking for a late 60s song by a major British group.

[topcat61]

There's been reported fraud in the hobby since 1971, but the key to thwarting it is to be educated to know when it's happening and report on it.

[RCMcKenzie]

Randy Newman, Linda, was 1968, but he is not a British group, so it can't be that one. Bob Geldof, Walking Back to Happiness is another I saw. I ran the word "pier" through a song list website and came up with hundreds of returns. I think My Morning Jacket has a song about a pier, but that's a newer band from the South.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Moody Blues Legend of a Mind 1968. If that ain't it I quit lol. (and I had to look this one up even though I'm a huge Moody Blues fan)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Moody Blues Legend of a Mind 1968. If that ain't it I quit lol. (and I had to look this one up even though I'm a huge Moody Blues fan)

Yes.
Signing of Timothy Leary: the little man who sells you thrills along the pier.

Great and different song, brilliant flute solo.

Originally Posted by Wimberleycardcollector

Yep, just watch American Greed. A whole TV series built on stories of fraud. Bill Mastro was on one episode. It's a shame we have so much an annual TV series can be made from the stories.

Corrected for those who find joy in pointing out other people's mistakes.

[jchcollins]

"Fraud" in the hobby has been around as long as there has been a hobby, I hate to tell you. It's just got a lot more light on it now because we have graders and dealers and auction houses who can stand to benefit tremendously more from the fraud, and the technology / scans / wherewithal to detect 1/16 of an inch or less of perfect trimming, recoloring, bleaching, soaking, what have you. We also perhaps more importantly have the technology to share and disseminate the details of this fraud en masse quickly. Is this bad? Sure. But did certain unscrupulous people also do similar, if much cruder card doctoring in 1968? 1975? 1982? 1990? Of course they did. It simply did not get a ton of light on it due to the way the hobby worked and communicated at the time. Even so, one could argue this was the impetus for the birth of professional grading. But I digress.

Bottom line, are you happy with your cards? Do you know enough about them to detect the red flags of what may be a basic doctoring job? Then don't buy those cards. I've been doing this for 35 years and most of the vintage (my main focus as a kid...) that I had then was beat up to begin with. I will admit to liking nice, properly slabbed midgrade cards, but if too many of those become ripe with suspicion over alteration, then it's no problem for me to go back to buying lower grade raw cards (for cheaper...) that I don't suspect of having been altered. Just speaking personally, it would take things getting a lot worse than they have been over the previous 3-5 years with the scandals for me to get that much more disgusted with the hobby to where I would consider leaving entirely. But each unto their own.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Already named above.

Peter, not quite a*pier, but I struck upon that 50's classic by the Drifters, "Under the Boardwalk."

Originally Posted by jchcollins

"Fraud" in the hobby has been around as long as there has been a hobby, I hate to tell you. It's just got a lot more light on it now because we have graders and dealers and auction houses who can stand to benefit tremendously more from the fraud, and the technology / scans / wherewithall to detect 1/16 of an inch or less of perfect trimming, recoloring, bleaching, soaking, what have you. We also perhaps more importantly have the technology to share and disseminate the details of this fraud en masse quickly. Is this bad? Sure. Bud did certain unscrupulous people also do similar, if much cruder card doctoring in 1968? 1975? 1982? 1990? Of course they did. It simply did not get a ton of light on it due to the way the hobby worked and communicated at the time. Even so, one could argue this was the impetus for the birth of professional grading. But I digress.

Bottom line, are you happy with your cards? Do you know enough about them to detect the red flags of what may be a basic doctoring job? Then don't buy those cards. I've been doing this for 35 years and most of the vintage (my main focus as a kid...) that I had then was beat up to begin with. I will admit to liking nice, properly slabbed midgrade cards, but if too many of those become ripe with suspect over alteration, then it's no problem for me to go back to buying lower grade raw cards (for cheaper...) that I don't suspect of having been altered. Just speaking personally, it would take things getting a lot worse than they have been over the previous 3-5 years with the scandals for me to get that much more disgusted with the hobby to where I would consider leaving entirely. But each unto their own.

Well said. I don't stress over baseball card collecting. But then again it's a hobby for me and not tied to financial gains or retirement. It all started with my love of baseball and continues to be tied to that. I also don't let politics ruin my love for the game.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Wimberleycardcollector

Well said. I don't stress over baseball card collecting. But then again it's a hobby for me and not tied to financial gains or retirement. It all started with my love of baseball and continues to be tied to that. I also don't let politics ruin my love for the game.

Thanks. Ugh, I see I cannot type or spell today.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Peter, not quite a*pier, but I struck upon that 50's classic by the Drifters, "Under the Boardwalk."

Its actually from 1964 although most think it's from the doo wop 50s.

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Thanks. Ugh, I see I cannot type or spell today.

LOL. Don't worry the grammar police will let you know.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

"Fraud" in the hobby has been around as long as there has been a hobby, I hate to tell you. It's just got a lot more light on it now because we have graders and dealers and auction houses who can stand to benefit tremendously more from the fraud, and the technology / scans / wherewithal to detect 1/16 of an inch or less of perfect trimming, recoloring, bleaching, soaking, what have you. We also perhaps more importantly have the technology to share and disseminate the details of this fraud en masse quickly. Is this bad? Sure. But did certain unscrupulous people also do similar, if much cruder card doctoring in 1968? 1975? 1982? 1990? Of course they did. It simply did not get a ton of light on it due to the way the hobby worked and communicated at the time. Even so, one could argue this was the impetus for the birth of professional grading. But I digress.

Bottom line, are you happy with your cards? Do you know enough about them to detect the red flags of what may be a basic doctoring job? Then don't buy those cards. I've been doing this for 35 years and most of the vintage (my main focus as a kid...) that I had then was beat up to begin with. I will admit to liking nice, properly slabbed midgrade cards, but if too many of those become ripe with suspicion over alteration, then it's no problem for me to go back to buying lower grade raw cards (for cheaper...) that I don't suspect of having been altered. Just speaking personally, it would take things getting a lot worse than they have been over the previous 3-5 years with the scandals for me to get that much more disgusted with the hobby to where I would consider leaving entirely. But each unto their own.

Terrific post.

[brob28]

Originally Posted by perezfan

It could be argued that the more you dislike and oppose fraud in the hobby, the more you love the hobby and want to protect it.

If you did not love the hobby or were apathetic to the molestation of cards for huge profits, then the fraud would probably not make your radar screen.

The people profiting from (and authenticating) fraud love the monetary aspect of the hobby. Those opposing fraud and corrupt practices love the hobby for what it is.

And when you love something, you do not stand by silently to watch it fall apart.

Well said Mark.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by brob28

Well said Mark.

I get that.

Maybe my post wasn't particularly well worded. What I find odd is how many of the people who rail about fraud in the hobby aren't actually railing against the fraudsters, but railing against other collectors who in their minds are too happy and aren't sufficiently outraged. Saying basically "because of collectors like you guys buying the stuff you're buying fraud is flourishing. . . .you should be more pissed off like I am."

The most obvious example is anytime someone posts about buying from PWCC 3 people immediately post about how PWCC is all about fraud bidding and how basically if you purchase cards from that company you are somehow complacent in all sorts of horrors.

Maybe too fine a point, but that's what I was trying to understand.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Well Steve, aren't they? If you support a company that does business the wrong way then you are giving the most important stamp of approval you can, your dollars, that keep them in business.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Well Steve, aren't they? If you support a company that does business the wrong way then you are giving the most important stamp of approval you can, your dollars, that keep them in business.

I'm just not that concerned with what other collectors do. Yes, I avoid companies that I don't think are ethical. But if someone else makes a different call I don't think it's my place to chastise them.

I vent at AHs all the time. I don't want to be in the business of venting at other collectors. The problem is the criminals, not their customers.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Yeah I think we're on the same page. I don't understand doing business with creeps and crooks so I don't do it. While I don't understand anyone who continues to do business with them I don't think I actively harangue them about it, just in my head lol, Although if someone who is still doing business with a crook then complains about the crooks in the hobby I might be disinclined to bite my tongue.

[Leon]

We all need to help root out fraud in the hobby. A few days ago a longtime member got shown the door as he completely reneged on a large item at a major auction house. He was still doing business on our BST daily. When I caught wind of it, in my estimation, he was no longer a good risk here. I had pm'd him and he was back on the board, 2x, but never answered the pm concerning the situation. Of course he followed up his banishment with the obligatory derogatory email.

To reply to the original question, I also don't understand folks who bitch and complain, yet stay in the hobby. The answer has to be money, doesn't it?


Every thread needs a random card.


.

[obcbobd]

Originally Posted by Leon

We all need to help root out fraud in the hobby. A few days ago a longtime member got shown the door as he completely reneged on a large item at a major auction house. He was still doing business on our BST daily. When I caught wind of it, in my estimation, he was no longer a good risk here. I had pm'd him and he was back on the board, 2x, but never answered the pm concerning the situation. Of course he followed up his banishment with the obligatory derogatory email.
.

Leon

A thankless task, for which I thank you!

Bob

[egri]

Originally Posted by obcbobd

Leon

A thankless task, for which I thank you!

Bob

+1