Gone with the stain

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No. There's a spectrum and trimming is at the far end of it.

Trimming is bad. Color touching is worse than bad. I am dismayed that PSA can't catch green that was added to that Clemente rookie card.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Trimming is bad. Color touching is worse than bad. I am dismayed that PSA can't catch green that was added to that Clemente rookie card.

If they can’t or they don’t care ? Please Submit Again

Our card submissions are up like ever before blah blah blah

Adding or removing anything from a cards original state is a no go to me

[drcy]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Trimming is bad. Color touching is worse than bad. I am dismayed that PSA can't catch green that was added to that Clemente rookie card.

I've always considered trimming worse than coloring, but that's me and they're both bad.

[CurtisFlood]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

Having spoken to Mr Towle in the past, he is a nice guy.

Whether you agree with his business or not is personal preference. As others have commented, there are numerous threads to review and comments to read to help guide and lead you down a path.

MD do you feel the same about ones who soak a card, because some on the forum have done so.

I met Mr. Towle several years ago and found him to be a very pleasant chap. I just decided not to use his services.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Gary Moser might be a sweetheart. Son of Sam liked dogs.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Gary Moser might be a sweetheart. Son of Sam liked dogs.

Lmao !!

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Try asking him for a list of cards he has worked on and for whom, and see just how transparent he is. There's no meaningful disclosure, just some generalities which are essentially advertisements for his services. At best he is knowingly enabling deception. And touting it.

I would hope that no business would just hand over customer information without a court order. It has nothing to do with transparency, some people just value their privacy. Even if they aren't breaking any laws or committing fraud.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I would hope that no business would just hand over customer information without a court order. It has nothing to do with transparency, some people just value their privacy. Even if they aren't breaking any laws or committing fraud.

Of course they value their privacy in this context, they don't want people to know they're selling doctored cards that they snuck past the TPGs. How many cards have you ever seen for sale where someone said, Dick Towle worked on this card and here's what he did?

PS I don't really expect Towle to disclose his client list, it's more a rhetorical point that he's knowingly assisting people in deception so I give him no credit at all for his supposed transparency.

[KCRfan1]

Michael, bigbeergut, I'm still waiting for you to answer if you believe soaking a card, which some on this forum has done, is as bad as what Towle does.

So far, all you are doing is trolling.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of course they value their privacy in this context, they don't want people to know they're selling doctored cards that they snuck past the TPGs. How many cards have you ever seen for sale where someone said, Dick Towle worked on this card and here's what he did?

PS I don't really expect Towle to disclose his client list, it's more a rhetorical point that he's knowingly assisting people in deception.

I don't disagree with any of the points you've made. My point was that any business should deny a request to hand over customer lists or transaction history. Regardless of the service or product they provide.

As for gone with the stain they definitely operate in a gray area. I've never used their services. But as others have noted at least they're up front and honest about what they do, even if some of their clients aren't.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I don't disagree with any of the points you've made. My point was that any business should deny a request to hand over customer lists or transaction history. Regardless of the service or product they provide.

As for gone with the stain they definitely operate in a gray area. I've never used their services. But as others have noted at least they're up front and honest about what they do, even if some of their clients aren't.

At some point in my estimation it's wrong to knowingly enable people committing fraud, even if you're not committing fraud yourself. And yes I am sure that if we were to fully explore this there would be nuances and gray areas.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

At some point in my estimation it's wrong to knowingly enable people committing fraud, even if you're not committing fraud yourself. And yes I am sure that if we were to fully explore this there would be nuances and gray areas.

It's an issue I struggle with. Do I sell an altered card clearly stating it's altered? Maybe doing that is ethical, but I can't know what the next guy down the line is planning. Am I enabling the cheaters? Basically for now I'm giving consignors back their altered cards unless they're already correctly slabbed. That's not a perfect solution either but it's where I'm at.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

...I can't know what the next guy down the line is planning.

If you're selling an altered card and describing it as such, then kudos to you. But you can't worry about the next guy down the line. You're not responsible for their actions.

It would be no different if you were selling an Ex/Mt card as such and the buyer micro-trims it and sells it as NM-MT. Or if you were selling a VG card with minor paper loss on the front (that would otherwise grade NM) and the buyer recolors the paper loss area and sells in as NM.

You can only control your actions, not others. Don't sweat it. You're doing the right thing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

It's an issue I struggle with. Do I sell an altered card clearly stating it's altered? Maybe doing that is ethical, but I can't know what the next guy down the line is planning. Am I enabling the cheaters? Basically for now I'm giving consignors back their altered cards unless they're already correctly slabbed. That's not a perfect solution either but it's where I'm at.

In a perfect world there would be a mechanism for taking the card off the market but since there isn't I think you're doing what you reasonably can. I also wouldn't have a problem if you just sold the card with a clear description. There's only so much any one person can control.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In a perfect world there would be a mechanism for taking the card off the market but since there isn't I think you're doing what you reasonably can. I also wouldn't have a problem if you just sold the card with a clear description. There's only so much any one person can control.

If you are disclosing the alterations, that's what you can do.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Couldn't Dick just have a searchable database showing all of his before and after comparisons so we could search a card we were thinking of buying and see if he worked on it or not? He wouldn't be disclosing his client list but would be giving the hobby the data and history of his work. That would be transparent no?

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of course they value their privacy in this context, they don't want people to know they're selling doctored cards that they snuck past the TPGs. How many cards have you ever seen for sale where someone said, Dick Towle worked on this card and here's what he did?



PS I don't really expect Towle to disclose his client list, it's more a rhetorical point that he's knowingly assisting people in deception so I give him no credit at all for his supposed transparency.

Maybe we could set up ole Dick with a sticker of his own. So when a prospective buyer sees the scarlet (or whatever color he might choose) Dick sticker, they know they are getting something...conserved...altered...special.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If you're selling an altered card and describing it as such, then kudos to you. But you can't worry about the next guy down the line. You're not responsible for their actions.

It would be no different if you were selling an Ex/Mt card as such and the buyer micro-trims it and sells it as NM-MT. Or if you were selling a VG card with minor paper loss on the front (that would otherwise grade NM) and the buyer recolors the paper loss area and sells in as NM.

You can only control your actions, not others. Don't sweat it. You're doing the right thing.

Thanks all for your thoughts. While I realize I'm not responsible for the next guy I do feel that auction houses and dealers should be stewards of the hobby in general. Call it enlightened self-interest, but if every seller turns out to be a piece of shit, the hobby won't last long. But if there are enough of us (and I'm taking liberties including myself in the group of auction houses and dealers as I am very small-time) who refuse to pass these cards on, maybe we can make a difference.

Especially good points about the legit cards being sold and then altered. Hadn't looked at it from that standpoint. Obviously there's nothing I can do in those instances. I see the difference as being those cards were legit as they passed through my hands, as opposed to cards that have already been monkeyed with before they come to me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by drcy

I know that GWTS's chemical treatments to remove signatures from baseballs is easy to identify under blacklight. And, in fact, on their website they themselves detail this.

According to Dick, a black light does not detect his signature removal.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...1&postcount=50

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

According to Dick, a black light does not detect his signature removal.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...1&postcount=50

I actually just read through that whole thread. Take the dates off and I may have thought it was current. Complaints about altered cards, talks of an FBI investigation shaking up the hobby, one guy complaining about the mob mentality around here, a few incoherent posts, quite interesting. Not much has changed in the last 10 years.

Not quite sure what to make of Towle's claim that he consulted PSA and SGC and tested his work. I don't doubt this happened as he said it did but figured these guys just submitted cards hoping to get them through. I wouldn't expect a card doctor to say hey I cleaned these up and removed some creases. Let me know if you see any signs of the alterations. I wonder if they graded them afterwards.

[Leon]

According to a good friend of mine who used Towle's services, and knows how to spot fakes and alterations better than anyone I know (and I know a few people), he couldn't discern what Towle had done (or used) to get stains off. No detection possible he said. He had it done for card(s) in his own collection. I would bet many people use Towle's services for fraudulent purposes. I too would like to see his customer list.
And he wasn't too happy about not being allowed on our forum either. But what he does, imo, is contrary to good hobby practices. I don't dislike the gentleman whatsoever, never met him, but this just isn't the right place for him.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

According to Dick, a black light does not detect his signature removal.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...1&postcount=50

[barrysloate]

I think just about everyone who participates in the baseball card hobby makes a kind of deal-with-the-devil: if you want to collect cards, you are going to have to put up with some level of fraud and deception. If you can live with it, power on and enjoy what you collect. If the threshold becomes more than you can bear, move on to another hobby. You can glue Popsicle sticks together with Elmer's glue and make lampshades. I hear that can be a great substitute for collecting.

[frankbmd]

I don’t get it. Why does anyone have a problem with disclosing client lists or even selling them?

If it works for Facebook, it works for me.

[MULLINS5]

I don't see anything wrong with restoration services. I've never had trading cards restored, but understand raw collectors may want some of their cards to have better eye-appeal. Yes, these cards may enter the hobby, but we paid PSA, SGC, BGS, etc, to detect them, right?

Personally I don't like the way they advertise their work getting past grading companies, but given everything that came out recently I guess that wasn't too difficult to achieve.

Think positive - this isn't worth getting all worked-up over.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I think just about everyone who participates in the baseball card hobby makes a kind of deal-with-the-devil: if you want to collect cards, you are going to have to put up with some level of fraud and deception. If you can live with it, power on and enjoy what you collect. If the threshold becomes more than you can bear, move on to another hobby. You can glue Popsicle sticks together with Elmer's glue and make lampshades. I hear that can be a great substitute for collecting.

But you have to eat a ton of popsicles... unless you cheat and buy the sticks wholesale... Damn. Just when I thought there was a "clean" hobby to enjoy.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

I don't see anything wrong with restoration services. I've never had trading cards restored, but understand raw collectors may want some of their cards to have better eye-appeal. Yes, these cards may enter the hobby, but we paid PSA, SGC, BGS, etc, to detect them, right?

Personally I don't like the way they advertise their work getting past grading companies, but given everything that came out recently I guess that wasn't too difficult to achieve.

Think positive - this isn't worth getting all worked-up over.

So you're Ok with paying the high grade bonus price when the card is actually altered?

And you're Ok with me paying a higher price because the altered restored cards in higher grades bring more so the lower grade examples increase in price?

Gee... thanks... I guess.

[GasHouseGang]

This article on Dick Towle's company Gone With The Stain appeared in an SCD blog on-line in 2008.

Restoration expert claims process is undetectable

October 7, 2008 | Chris Nerat |

The SCD crew couldn’t detect his procedures on cards they sent him. He claims the grading companies can’t detect the procedures, either.

Yet Gone With the Stain owner Dick Towle still catches flack from collectors. Whether he’s taking off an ugly water stain, fountain pen ink or glue residue from a card, there are people out there who don’t believe his stain removal process is ethical. Some think it’s good for the hobby, while others consider it borderline taboo.

I recently did an interview with Towle about his controversial procedure for my Gavel Chat blog (gavelchat.sportscollectorsdigest.com), and thought readers of the publication would be as intrigued with this topic as our online readers were.

Sports Collectors Digest: Tell us about your company and how you got started.
Dick Towle: About 15 years ago, I had developed a process and took about two years of research and showed it to some prominent dealers who saw one of my processes for removing Scotch tape from a card that he (originally) said couldn’t be done. That bothered me, so I went back, knocked on his hotel room door, showed it to him and his partner and he said, “I can’t believe it.”
We developed the processes for removing Scotch tape and over the years we’ve increased that with cards that are glued into albums to remove the glue. We also do cards that have indents that shouldn’t be on there, or cards that have staining on the back of them. We’ve been doing it for 15 years, and work with many prominent dealers around the country, including some of the great people on the Network 54 Vintage Baseball Card Forum, who I have as customers.
It’s quite a process. It’s evolved. My wife now has taken over a lot of my work, and my son. It’s a family business. I guess the bottom line is taking a card without adding anything to it, which to me is very, very illegal. But removing something that should not be on a card, and increasing the value. We’re non-sports and sports cards, and we’ve done quite a few different things for customers.

SCD: Do you use a chemical process?
Towle: I’ve got various chemicals. I’ve got about 13 that I’ve developed. We’ve just finished an ink process for a very prominent dealer down in Florida where we’ve developed the process to take fountain pen ink off of cards. They were actually graded by two very reputable grading companies. They both passed grading. We were actually able to extract the ink. We’re working on ballpoint pen right now. But the fountain pen ink came out and the cards were graded, which obviously adds huge dollars to a card.

SCD: Can you smell the chemicals on the card?
Towle: No. In fact, when I first started out, one of the prominent grading companies gave me cards as a test. And I did it for them, and they looked at the card and smelled the card and they said “There’s nothing here.” And I said, “Case closed.” That was really the launch pad right there.

SCD: What will happen to the cards that you’ve treated years from now? Are there been any long-term effects?
Towle: No, because again, I’m removing something that shouldn’t be on there. Now, there are people that will use lighter fluid to remove stains from cards. Well, it will work, but only on a short term because paper has moisture in it. The lighter fluid actually takes it out. That card becomes brittle like a credit card and can snap. That’s actually happened before. We did a Roberto Clemente card just to prove the case. It snapped. After about five days the card snapped in half, very brittle.
If you send me a card with a rounded corner, with an indent, you’re going to get the card back with the rounded corner, but the indent will be gone. Cards with stains, you’re going to get the stains removed.
People have asked me, “Do you tell the customer that the stain has been removed?” Well, 99 percent of my work is done for dealers and individual customers around the country. What they do with the card after that, I have no idea. But then again, if a card is already graded from a “4” to a “7,” that really tells the story.
I just completed a Mickey Mantle rookie for another prominent dealer down in Florida. It had terrible stains on the back and we got the stains off. He said the card would probably get a “lock 8.” But it wouldn’t get it with the stains on it. He’s as happy as a bullfrog.

SCD: Do you have any stories about very valuable cards that you’ve seen in graded-card holders that would have been really low graded if you wouldn’t have done your process on them?
Towle: Oh, yes. There was a complete Cracker Jack set. These cards were all glued in a book. They commissioned my company to remove the cards, remove the cards without damaging and remove the glue. We did them all. We got it all out. They sold for well in excess of $50,000. They actually ended up selling, all of those cards in PSA sleeves, for around $180,000.
That’s because there was nothing on the cards. The cards were fine.
I once got a Clemente rookie, and the customer wanted the stain out. I put it in the solvent, and noticed the card was very hard. That bothered me. I got it out of the solvent and had two pieces of the card in my hand. What it was, someone did a very masterful job. The card was perfectly torn in half, they glued it and then they put the non-florescent paint on the card. And they brought it together. We proved that somebody had tried to defraud this customer.
When I do a lot of cards, I’ll see sometimes that a card has been painted because the solvent will actually take the paint off the cards. So somebody buys a beautiful card and asks me to take out an indent. I’ll put it in the solvent and I’ll look and see the tip of the card. And all of a sudden I’ll see the color come off. I say ‘Well I got good news and bad news. I got your stain out, but now you’re going to get a true grade on this card because now you can actually see the white from where somebody painted it.’

SCD: Knowing what you know from your experiences in the hobby over the years, and knowing what you have been told by people about your process, what do you think the grading companies will think about this interview?
Towle: It is what it is. I’m not putting anything into a card, and they can’t see anything. There are other people out there who do bits and pieces of what I do. Overall, I probably have the market as far as overall. But there are people that are as good as I am in sections of the card repairing field. But the grading companies know it’s out there and they know me. I can’t fear what somebody else may think or do. All I know is, for 15 years I’ve been satisfying hundreds of people around the country.

SCD: How much does it cost?
Towle: Generally, $25 or $30 on a card. Now there’s going to be rare exception where it will be higher. For instance, ink takes up to three or four day to remove. It’s a very slow, methodical process. But you can figure an average of maybe $25 or $30 is about the worst one would have to pay. That’s not a lot of money to have a card maybe go up a grade or grade and a half. If somebody sends me bulk, I will give them a deal.
SCD: What’s the average turnaround time?
Towle: Less than two weeks.

SCD: Have you ever had anybody who was able to detect that you did a removal on a card?
Towle: No, not a one.

SCD: How many cards have you treated in your life?
Towle: Without exaggerating, probably 15,000-18,000 cards.

SCD: And not one person could detect anything being done to one of them?
Towle: No, because there’s nothing there. There’s nothing that they can see.

SCD: What are some of the more valuable cards that you’ve worked on?
Towle: Lots of tobacco cards. I had a Babe Ruth rookie I worked on, a lot of Old Judges. I’ve probably done about 500 Old Judges that we got those looking really nice and they all graded. I’ve done so many Mickey Mantle rookies it’s ridiculous.

SCD: What’s the hardest substance to remove from a card?
Towle: Possibly the ballpoint ink, but that’s getting closer. The ink, you’ve got to be careful, because you don’t want it to bleed.
Probably the hardest are the cards that are glued into something. About nine months ago, a woman sent me an actual chest, like a pirates chest. She sent me the top. I got this monster thing from UPS. And there were 28 tobacco cards glued into the top of the chest, and eight of them were Ty Cobbs. We actually had to get a jigsaw and cut out the cards. And then I had to work from a piece of wood in my solvent. And we got them all out. Now true, there was some staining on the back. I couldn’t help it. It was wood. But the cards were absolutely gorgeous. I sent them back, and she was ecstatic. Whatever happened to them (after that), I have no clue.

SCD: Do you have any clients that are auction houses.
Towle: No.

SCD: If somebody wants to contact you about submitting cards to your company, how should they go about it?
Towle: My e-mail address is . . .

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

We developed the processes for removing Scotch tape and over the years we’ve increased that with cards that are glued into albums to remove the glue. We also do cards that have indents that shouldn’t be on there, or cards that have staining on the back of them. We’ve been doing it for 15 years, and work with many prominent dealers around the country, including some of the great people on the Network 54 Vintage Baseball Card Forum, who I have as customers.

(Emphasis added.)

Oof...I hope I haven't unwittingly put money in the pockets of any of the "great people" he references.

[1880nonsports]

you have....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Real tough questioning in that interview. LOL.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Real tough questioning in that interview. LOL.

Yeah, really hard-hitting questions. I think it was one of those articles that says "Paid Advertisement" in small type at the top.

[GasHouseGang]

I think one of the interesting things he said in the article was this:

SCD: How many cards have you treated in your life?
Towle: Without exaggerating, probably 15,000-18,000 cards.

In 2008 when this article was written, he had been doing this for 15 years. It's now 11 years later so we can probably add at least 12,000 cards or so to that total. So one card doctor has done at least 27,000 cards, possibly many more. That's a lot of altered cards by one guy.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

And his work is more time-consuming than micro-trimming

[Johnny630]

Subpoena card doctors and their underlings financial accounts looking for purchases of micro trimming machines

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Subpoena card doctors and their underlings financial accounts looking for purchases of micro trimming machines

I’m guessing you’ve never asked a judge to so order a subpoena. Just a hunch.

[murphy8276]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I’m guessing you’ve never asked a judge to so order a subpoena. Just a hunch.

He likely doesn't have the authority to do so...

[71buc]

For those who might be interested, these cards were worked on by GWTS.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=269343

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

For an undetectable process the borders are significantly LESS white on the ones with ink removed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I think one of the interesting things he said in the article was this:

SCD: How many cards have you treated in your life?
Towle: Without exaggerating, probably 15,000-18,000 cards.

In 2008 when this article was written, he had been doing this for 15 years. It's now 11 years later so we can probably add at least 12,000 cards or so to that total. So one card doctor has done at least 27,000 cards, possibly many more. That's a lot of altered cards by one guy.

No worries, CU's CEO and CFO say none of this is material, and judging by the stock price they must be right!

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by steve B

So you're Ok with paying the high grade bonus price when the card is actually altered?

And you're Ok with me paying a higher price because the altered restored cards in higher grades bring more so the lower grade examples increase in price?

Gee... thanks... I guess.

Restored cards are altered so they are not higher grade.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

Restored cards are altered so they are not higher grade.

they get into high grade holders...

I'm ok with altered cards when it's sold as altered, and readily detectable. Like the old collections where tall T206s got the tops shortened to fit the early plastic pages that had pockets that were a very tight fit.

But when it's altered and slides through TPG and ends up as an 8 or 9 that's a problem.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by steve B

they get into high grade holders...

But they're not high grade.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

But they're not high grade.

Doesn't matter, the flip says it's high grade and that's all that matters to enough people that the prices are strong.

[GasHouseGang]

This article appeared in the May 31, 1996 Sports Collectors Digest. I guess Gone With The Stain was just getting started at this point. I hope the copy is big enough to read. I can send someone the original .pdf scans if they have a better way to make them more readable.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Subpoena card doctors and their underlings financial accounts looking for purchases of micro trimming machines

Microtrimmers? Is that something new?

[swarmee]

Basically, they're shaving off 1/64ths of an inch off a card to reduce corner and edge wear. Sometimes they cut off quite a bit more to make a card more centered to enable it to get a higher grade.

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Microtrimmers? Is that something new?

Like nose hair trimmers I think

[GasHouseGang]

Larger scans....

[Leon]

Nice article. I have less of a problem with a substance removal (still not totally ok with it with unknown solvents) than I do the crease removal.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Doesn't matter, the flip says it's high grade and that's all that matters to enough people that the prices are strong.

Well, if it doesn't matter, then it doesn't matter.