Ethical to sell 1952 Mantle PSA 8 uncracked case

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Is the mechanic who tunes up the get away car for a bank robbery a criminal?

I don't see this guy as the mechanic who tunes up the get away car, more like the guy they bought the unregistered, no serial numbers guns to rob the bank.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by xplainer

Here is his response to my message through eBay:

I never intended for the case to be sold for an insane amount of money. When I used the case to have fun with my friends I never tried to sell it. I do think there is some value to it just as a novelty item as i explained in my description. I completely understand your point that someone may try to use it in a fraudulent way but that never crossed my mind until others mentioned it. A scammer is always going to try and scam. Hopefully the message board and even other collectors can learn from this case and auction to really inspect a card and not just trust the case (PRO Grading is a prime example). I feel I was as honest as possible in the description and was very responsible with the case. A toy gun if misused can be utilized in the wrong way but toy companies still sell them. That is not the toy company's intent nor is fraudulent activity mine. I appreciate the conversation. Thanks

right even a real gun can be used safely or misused...its the method it which its available and other factors that can make the gun manufacturer liable for the acts of thugs..

in this case, hes like an ostrich head in the sand....his description shows that he likes to use lots and lots of words..and he can always respond to your messages with his use of lots and lots of words...but novelty item or not...$200+ he knows its wrong...no matter how many words he uses..

[Theo_450]

I don't see how you can hold a person responsible for the potentially fraudelaunt/illegal activities of someone else.

By this logic, no one should ever sell a car in case the buyer gets drunk and drives it into a school bus.

I do agree that the seller is acting irresponsibly to the hobby, and is probably going to get in trouble with PSA for copyright issues, but if he wants to take that risk, he is free to be as dumb as he wants to be.

[Rollingstone206]

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[Theo_450]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

I don't see this guy as the mechanic who tunes up the get away car, more like the guy they bought the unregistered, no serial numbers guns to rob the bank.

It's not illegal to tune up a car. It is illegal to remove serial numbers off of guns, but that doesn't really even matter. The serial numbers don't lead anywhere and they still go bang.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

i sent the seller a message explaining how fraud could be facilitated by this sale.
He was kind enough to respond


I understand your concern. I no longer want the case for my personal collection. I started the auction off at .99 cents and let it end where it may. There are over 60 people watching it as of right now with 28 bids. I was as honest as I could be in the description and explained in great detail exactly what was being sold. In your professional opinion how would you recommend I sell this item. Thanks and God Bless!!



I responded to him as follows,


The listing has been posted on a message board I and many other collectors frequent. Collectively we have ongoing concerns about fraud in the hobby. Since both the holder and the Mantle photo have no intrinsic value, dollars spent for the holder imply that a buyer is looking to profit from spending hundreds to get it. Your watchers and interest in your auction probably spiked after the listing was posted on our and perhaps other messages boards. I can easily accept from your response that you are not engaged in fraud, but may be inadvertently facilitating it. The right thing to do in my opinion would be to discontinue the auction and destroy the holder.


We'll see what his response is.

He has responded to this with the same message that others have received. My next question for him was

"Were you also honest when you tried the same trick in November 2013? Or was that a different card? Your credibility is evaporating."


To which he responded "I was honest in November 2013, which proves I have had the case for awhile."

Thanks Peter.

[Peter_Spaeth]

"You're credibility is evaporating."

And with that kind of grammar, so is yours.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

Really? - Ferris Wheel Rides?

Cleveland National reference I believe...

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

...maybe the famous net54 fraud check guy will buy it..

We're still waiting, Jake. Who is this person you refer to?

[KCRfan1]

So, the seller has admittedly producing a counterfeit PSA label and counterfeit Mantle to " fool friends ". And I agree with others that ethically, there is a problem here. The seller knows exactly what is going to happen with the card once sold, but does not seem to care. He did say " God Bless " though...gotta laugh at the hypocrisy.

[almostdone]

Something like this actually happened to me few years ago and none of this even dawned on me. I had purchased a card and when it was shipped to me the seller put it in a PSA case with no flip in it to protect it from damage in shipping. It wasn't frosted. It just looked like two new halves that hadn't been used. He had a rubber band around it to keep it together. The tiny pins in the edge of the case that face the corresponding holes to line it up before sealing were still intact. If put together and squeezed slightly it actually stayed together.
I didn't think much about it except it was a good way to protect a card in transit. Since I had no real use for it I discarded it with the rest of the packaging.
I guess this sort of thing can happen occasionally. Scary to think what someone could do if a box of these plastic sides came out in the market. They have to be manufactured somewhere and I would bet it's not in house at PSA.
Kind of gives a new spin to the phrase "Buy the card, not the holder".

Drew

[Bestdj777]

I don't see why anyone would spend that money on a fake Mantle, even if they did have bad intentions. The "card" doesn't come close to resembling a PSA 8 with such a rough cut. I would think you could spend 20 bucks on a handful of graded, modern cards and take your shot at cracking them without tearing up the cases, like I'm assuming all of the other scammers do.

[xplainer]

Another thing to consider is that, somewhere, there is a proud owner of a real PSA 8. Little does he know, there will soon be a "twin" of his card floating around.

I checked the number, and it is a PSA 8 Mantle.

Does the seller not realize that by selling this, all his future sales will be in question?

This is crazier than the Jason Mars T206 Wagner.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Bestdj777

I don't see why anyone would spend that money on a fake Mantle, even if they did have bad intentions. The "card" doesn't come close to resembling a PSA 8 with such a rough cut. I would think you could spend 20 bucks on a handful of graded, modern cards and take your shot at cracking them without tearing up the cases, like I'm assuming all of the other scammers do.

what about someone getting another mantle reprint that's better....the issue isn't the mantle..the issue is the 'legit' holder..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Runscott

We're still waiting, Jake. Who is this person you refer to?

Presumably the guy Ian won't name?

[Runscott]

Oh, okay. I need to work on my boyntonese.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Presumably the guy Ian won't name?

correct peter...was super hard to know what I was referring too..

[Eric72]

.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Presumably the guy Ian won't name?

So it's all about Ian now?

[DaveW]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

if I was selling fake $50 bills on ebay for $5, saying they were fake but looked real would that be ok?

I think you would get a visit from some Secret Service agents who would explain whether it is OK.

And the seller is from Ohio! Enough said.

[Rollingstone206]

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[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Rollingstone206

$510.00

By a zero feedback bidder with a total of five bids in his life. He must feel so lucky to have prevailed in this auction.

[Rollingstone206]

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[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

So it's all about Ian now?

Gee, I guess so? Pretty surprised to see my name pop up in this thread. No idea how being outright robbed of a large sum of money directly relates to this Mantle flip, but I guess when "it's all about" you, it just goes with territory.

(I know you're just joking Frank)

[JollyRoger]

What collector in his right mind is willing to pay $510 for a PICTURE of a card? Either the buyer failed to read the item description, or has plans to scam someone. As others have pointed out, that picture of the Mantle card looks nowhere near the assigned grade on the picture of the flip!

[KCRfan1]

Poof, it's completely gone from ebay as though it never existed.

[D.P.Johnson]

Sad.........I guess we'll have to go back to talking about Ian now........

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

Poof, it's completely gone from ebay as though it never existed.

Perhaps it was Richard Cavalieri behind the listing and knew now he wont get paid.. (though all this talk about him with no response may be because he not in good health or on vacation etc)

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by vintagehofrookies

Keep your eyes open at the National this year as this might be making an appearance.

^^^ This.

Oh, please let that be one of the cards that is stolen, too. That would be Lady Karma knocking it out of the park! Two crooks getting worked over at the same time.

First, the unscrupulous gent who spent $500 to acquire the fake would be out his "investment", thereby insuring that he would have absolutely no chance of selling it for 100 times his purchase price to some unsuspecting chap at the start of the National...AND, the idiot who would risk his reputation, and his very freedom to steal the card, wouldn't be getting THE vintage baseball card, but a worthless reproduction.

Please, God. Should this happen, somebody on our board messages me, and send me the link.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

^^^ This.

Oh, please let that be one of the cards that is stolen, too. That would be Lady Karma knocking it out of the park! Two crooks getting worked over at the same time.

First, the unscrupulous gent who spent $500 to acquire the fake would be out his "investment", thereby insuring that he would have absolutely no chance of selling it for 100 times his purchase price to some unsuspecting chap at the start of the National...AND, the idiot who would risk his reputation, and his very freedom to steal the card, wouldn't be getting THE vintage baseball card, but a worthless reproduction.

Please, God. Should this happen, somebody on our board messages me, and send me the link.

well there are other things that are criminal and sketchy....what if someone buys the card for 69k..and its stolen..and files an insurance claim for a psa 8 mantle...could be a nice proft..


another issue is its one thing to pass off a psa 8 mantle ....but another to pass off a 2k card.....once you got a holder you have lots of choices of cards to use and price points....

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Perhaps it was Richard Cavalieri behind the listing and knew now he wont get paid.. (though all this talk about him with no response may be because he not in good health or on vacation etc)

That's not very nice of you to tease Ian that way. I mean, would you want someone to say that someone is spending money they stole from you on some extravagant vacation???

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

That's not very nice of you to tease Ian that way. I mean, would you want someone to say that someone is spending money they stole from you on some extravagant vacation???

haha, for 1000 bucks would have to be a staycation..

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

haha, for 1000 bucks would have to be a staycation..

It's all fun and games until you become a victim...

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

haha, for 1000 bucks would have to be a staycation..

Guess who won't give two sh*ts if/when something bad happens to you? I'd say I'll make sure to post jokes and snide remarks at that point, but that's not really my style. I will say, you've shown a whole lot of class as a fellow board member

Clamoring for a name, clamoring for a name... then undercutting everything that's been said since the name came out. You said my comments should be taken with a grain of salt, but you should look in the mirror.

Now I think I'll go kick myself once or twice for even responding to you.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Guess who won't give two sh*ts if/when something bad happens to you? I'd say I'll make sure to post jokes and snide remarks at that point, but that's not really my style. I will say, you've shown a whole lot of class as a fellow board member

Clamoring for a name, clamoring for a name... then undercutting everything that's been said since the name came out. You said my comments should be taken with a grain of salt, but you should look in the mirror.

Now I think I'll go kick myself once or twice for even responding to you.

eh if you look at the start of the conversation I said the guy could be on vacation or away...ANOTHER net54 member said that the guy may be on vacation with funds from the sale and was clearly joking....and you jump on my comment? Why you not jumping on that comment...


I actually hoping my comments will draw out this guy....I was also hoping his name being brought out in the open may draw him out as well.....maybe he sees that he may have an 'out' to explain he may more apt to try to say something..........I didn't try to offend you in any way.....I hope you catch this guy if what you said is true..

Plus this is a thread about the Mantle that was for sale...that I started......I do think that by me mentioning Richard's name and keeping it in the minds of people doesn't help him for future sales...I not sure how that's bad for you..

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

It's all fun and games until you become a victim...

D.P- you said earlier 'That's not very nice of you to tease Ian that way. I mean, would you want someone to say that someone is spending money they stole from you on some extravagant vacation??? '


whos the one that brought up an 'EXTRAVAGANT vacation' I was not implying in anyway a vacation paid by Ian's funds, I was stating that he may be unavailable for many a reason.....then you try to go on a high horse and say 'its all fun and games until you are the victim?'

you were clearly joking around and teasing...and now I get the brunt of it from Ian when I was just making a point.......

[jsconscum]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

if I was selling fake $50 bills on ebay for $5, saying they were fake but looked real would that be ok?

Did you just compare money with a Baseball card?

There are lots of people out there who want this stuff who cant afford the real deal, for their own personal collection. I wish people would mind their own business.

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by jsconscum

Did you just compare money with a Baseball card?

There are lots of people out there who want this stuff who cant afford the real deal, for their own personal collection. I wish people would mind their own business.

I guess since ebay closed down the auction, there was something wrong with selling it after all.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Why does the baseball collecting hobby collect the most despicable people that walk the earth? It is just sickening.

I agree wholeheartedly

[jsconscum]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

I guess since ebay closed down the auction, there was something wrong with selling it after all.

Ebay will close anything down if enough narks complain.

[Rollingstone206]

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[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jsconscum

Ebay will close anything down if enough narks complain.

+1 I do not get it forum members have a hissy fit about this but those same people don't seem to have a problem with someone else selling fake graded T206 Wagners and Planks that are made to fool people.

[PM770]

Originally Posted by jsconscum

Ebay will close anything down if enough narks complain.

Shouldn't the above require his name on his post.

PM770 - Paul "The Narc" Matisak

[Rollingstone206]

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[Rollingstone206]

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[Leon]

Originally Posted by PM770

Shouldn't the above require his name on his post.

PM770 - Paul "The Narc" Matisak

Yes, his registered name is.. Ran.dy Smi.th


.

[jsconscum]

Originally Posted by Rollingstone206

I guess you'd know since I believe that was your auction cardbuyer20 from Amherst, Ohio.

HA I wish I owned all those high dollar cards