Do-over. heritage relists no sale psa, jsa 1939 controversial signedinduction program

[RichardSimon]

When I was asked about them my second thought after chuckling over 3 R's was that the top loop on the L was way too long.
But I also know who else would have authenticated this piece and seen it wind up in a CC auction.
Agree Travis?

[travrosty]

Here is the Connie Mack signatures from both programs that were certed by psa and jsa. Notice how the ink signature on the 1939 program that featured the 3 R Larry Lajoie takes on a slant to the right, while the pencil signature on the 1939 induction day HOF program that is currently on its 2nd go round at Heritage as we speak stands upright, straight as an arrow, no slant.

The NN's in Connie slant to the right in the ink signature, while they don't seem to slant at all in the pencil signature. The E in Connie slants forward on the ink signature, and lays back on the pencil signature. Wow! That's quite a contrast and quite embarrassing.

Both signatures supposed to be signed on the same day back in 1939, and psa and jsa like them both. I don't like them, they don't match and they are just a couple more signatures that are contrived and dubious on this hit parade of autographs that come up snake eyes. How can they both be real as PSA and JSA claim? What exemplars were used.

Were any exemplars used?

Were any good exemplars used? How were the principles of handwriting analysis used on these pieces?

The pencil signature is especially childish and ridiculous. How did either of thsee get a coveted cert?

Give me your thoughts, and if you like JSA and PSA and still think they do a great job, especially on vintage baseball and sports, please come on here let your voice be heard.

[yanks12025]

Couldn't the way someone signs, alter the auto in a way. Say that they are sitting down and signing on a table compared to standing signing?

[Caseyatbat]

Here is an example of another 1939 HOF Induction signed item that was actually sold in the exact same auction as the first example being used in this thread with the ink signatures. It is an amazing item and I don't think there is much question regarding the authenticity of it. Should be a great example for you guys to compare to.

[19cbb]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

Here is an example of another 1939 HOF Induction signed item that was actually sold in the exact same auction as the first example being used in this thread with the ink signatures. It is an amazing item and I don't think there is much question regarding the authenticity of it. Should be a great example for you guys to compare to.

Not an autograph 'expert' but do the 2 Cy Young's look like they were signed on the same day?

[baseballart]

Casey, whose are the two signatures below Grover Alexander's? Thanks, Max

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by baseballart

Casey, whose are the two signatures below Grover Alexander's? Thanks, Max

Kenesaw Landis is one of them.
The other one is a sig and the initials P.M.,, maybe that stands for postmaster?
I am searching the net trying to find some more authenticated 1939 pieces.
Will post results later tday.

[Caseyatbat]

The original auction description describes the second autograph is from an unknown hand. What is a little strange, is they go on to mention that the inscription PM perhaps stands for postmaster as Richard mentioned, but they go on to say the actual postmaster of Cooperstown was actually there on hand at the ceremony. So which postmaster are they referring the signature was from? The postmaster from from the city the postcard was mailed to?

[Caseyatbat]

More food for thought. So far we have seen 3 examples of 1939 HOF Induction ceremony signed items. I am now going to introduce a fourth example for us to compare to each other. All of these pieces were supposedly signed on the exact same day (weekend) in 1939. *Please not, there seem to be significant signature variations used from several of the players throughout these 4 examples including: Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Walter Johnson, Larry Lajoie, Cy Young, etc. Just to clarify, I am not saying it is impossible for a player to use several different signatures on the same day, but interesting to say the least.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Give me your thoughts, and if you like JSA and PSA and still think they do a great job, especially on vintage baseball and sports, please come on here let your voice be heard.

You know I love your passion Travis and I hold your opinions in high regard, despite what you might think. My feelings are that the leaders in 3rd party authentication need some work. Maybe a lot. These kind of examples coming to light are the product of very sloppy work (which we know they are susceptible), favoritism, fraud or both. I guess I choose to believe that they mostly get it right. The FDE's that have to know by now they are authenticating NOTHING BUT FORGERIES, because they almost NEVER GET IT RIGHT. They are complicit to the crime. It goes way beyond "I didn't know, it's my opinion" B.S they like to hang their hat on. They never retract a certificate either. Both FDE's and alphabets should retract known forgeries that got by their initial look as soon as it is a well known fact. With FDE's like Moraless, he would have 3 obscure golf autographs correct and almost everything else should be recalled.

I know you went to work for one of the alphabets for a very short time. You left after you found out you couldn't make a difference and your ideas fell on deaf ears. They are idiots for not listening. They are really not trying to improve their business. After you beat your head against the wall and found out "change for the better" was not in the works with the current structure, you left. I wish they would have taken the constructive criticism, but they didn't and apparently don't listen to anyone. Their overall reputation will suffer with many strong detractors like yourself if they keep it up.

Still, it would be comforting for you to admit that Christopher Moraless does not have his certification on 1-Authentic Muhammad Ali autograph. They are all forgeries. (99.99%) I speak from what I know like you do. I see very few questionable Mickey Mantle's with PSA or JSA. They are almost always right. Just like Moraless is always wrong. So, I don't know how much more I can tell you.

I think your efforts to discredit PSA & JSA and not FDE's is a TRAVESTY, pun intended. I am against all nonsense and fraud not just from alphabets and that's what makes it hard to get behind your plight. You are 100MPH railing against alphabets with blinders on. If they keep it up, they will be out of business and all we'll have is rubber stamper FDE's popping up more so than they do now.

In any case, Keep doing what makes you happy and everything should work out just fine in the end.

[RichardSimon]

I might be incorrect but I thought Travis had said he was offered a job by an alphabet but never actually worked for one.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

You know I love your passion Travis and I hold your opinions in high regard, despite what you might think. My feelings are that the leaders in 3rd party authentication need some work. Maybe a lot. These kind of examples coming to light are the product of very sloppy work (which we know they are susceptible), favoritism, fraud or both. I guess I choose to believe that they mostly get it right. The FDE's that have to know by now they are authenticating NOTHING BUT FORGERIES, because they almost NEVER GET IT RIGHT. They are complicit to the crime. It goes way beyond "I didn't know, it's my opinion" B.S they like to hang their hat on. They never retract a certificate either. Both FDE's and alphabets should retract known forgeries that got by their initial look as soon as it is a well known fact. With FDE's like Moraless, he would have 3 obscure golf autographs correct and almost everything else should be recalled.

I know you went to work for one of the alphabets for a very short time. You left after you found out you couldn't make a difference and your ideas fell on deaf ears. They are idiots for not listening. They are really not trying to improve their business. After you beat your head against the wall and found out "change for the better" was not in the works with the current structure, you left. I wish they would have taken the constructive criticism, but they didn't and apparently don't listen to anyone. Their overall reputation will suffer with many strong detractors like yourself if they keep it up.

Still, it would be comforting for you to admit that Christopher Moraless does not have his certification on 1-Authentic Muhammad Ali autograph. They are all forgeries. (99.99%) I speak from what I know like you do. I see very few questionable Mickey Mantle's with PSA or JSA. They are almost always right. Just like Moraless is always wrong. So, I don't know how much more I can tell you.

I think your efforts to discredit PSA & JSA and not FDE's is a TRAVESTY, pun intended. I am against all nonsense and fraud not just from alphabets and that's what makes it hard to get behind your plight. You are 100MPH railing against alphabets with blinders on. If they keep it up, they will be out of business and all we'll have is rubber stamper FDE's popping up more so than they do now.

In any case, Keep doing what makes you happy and everything should work out just fine in the end.

You are doing the popular thing, I am doing the unpopular thing, but the necessary thing. When I am vindicated, others like you will be on my side then, saying you were there all the time, probably leading the way, and you weren't.

We will know who was there and who wasn't.

You think these are isolated incidents, they are not. There are tons more. You won't even believe it. Just wait. The Ruth ball investigation is ten parts, so far only three parts have been shown. I am not writing that investigation, I don't know whats coming up, but I can bet it will knock your socks off.

A lot of people say the old GAI stunk.

But at the time they were still in business, I bet few spoke up. But when they went bankrupt, then the chorus starts, and now that bandwagon is full.

The old GAI was fully equal to PSA, and they are no more, totally discredited by their own actions and authentications. Why are you so sure it couldn't happen to any of the other popular companies? Why are they infallible? What makes them good, other than their own press releases? What exactly is their qualifications?

[RichardSimon]

Travis - I do respect you for the knowledge that you have and for fighting the good fight.
However, I see how you artfully dodge any attempt to solicit an opinion from you regarding other troubling spots in the hobby, namely the FDE's.
Is there a reason that you won't comment about that issue? Some people have already speculated to me about your possible reasons. Does it have anything to do with the ANL site?
Until I hear something from you to contradict them, I am going to have to believe their side of it because nothing on this comes from you. You ignore whenever a question is brought up and never make any attempt to answer.
Fuddjcal was very direct in his questioning and yet you made out like he was not even there when it came to answering him directly.
Answer us Travis, we deserve that much.

[RichardSimon]

Casey - you are right, I wanted to see who the first one would be to figure it out. I also wanted people to see and compare what was authenticated by the alphabet guys to what has gone up on CC.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Travis - I do respect you for the knowledge that you have and for fighting the good fight.
However, I see how you artfully dodge any attempt to solicit an opinion from you regarding other troubling spots in the hobby, namely the FDE's.
Is there a reason that you won't comment about that issue? Some people have already speculated to me about your possible reasons. Does it have anything to do with the ANL site?
Until I hear something from you to contradict them, I am going to have to believe their side of it because nothing on this comes from you. You ignore whenever a question is brought up and never make any attempt to answer.
Fuddjcal was very direct in his questioning and yet you made out like he was not even there when it came to answering him directly.
Answer us Travis, we deserve that much.

okay i will answer, i have answered this 100 times already, and you can believe what you want. i have commented on fde's many times.

anl doesnt have anything to do with anything. i post under my own name and you wont find one paragraph that i have ever posted defending the fde's.

what about morales do you or anyone else not understand by now? that's why i dont get. people see the denouncing of morales as an endorsement of the tpa's, they think it is either/or, when I dont like either one, but they refuse to accept that paradigm.

so as soon as they see me denounce the fde's, they say "see , Roste endorses the TPA companies." I won't give them that satisfaction, because if anybody took a few minutes to look on the web, they will see many statements I have made that take the fde's to task. If they don't want to look for them, that is not my problem.

do you really think i think the fde's do a good job? I don't have to take up anyone elses banner. i take up my own.

If someone is vehemently against drunk driving, and that is their cause all day long, and I am against spousal abuse and I like to bring that to light as #1 problem, just because I don't put drunk driving first as my cause, it doesn't mean I am for drunk driving! Do you guys get it by now?

People will accuse someone of being for drunk driving if that person doesn't give up their cause they hold close to their heart and take up someone elses as #1.

Richard, give up dolphins and take up saving the spotted owls, if you don't then you must want to see the owls wiped out. Is that fair?

That's how people portray me and I resent it. End of the FDE discussion because I can only say it 63,000 times. I have told Fudd this many, many times, and he doesn't care, and only spreads the rumors about me that I resent. Take his side and do what you want with it. It's a straw man argument, always has been, and always will be.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

okay i will answer, i have answered this 100 times already, and you can believe what you want. i have commented on fde's many times.

anl doesnt have anything to do with anything. i post under my own name and you wont find one paragraph that i have ever posted defending the fde's.

what about morales do you or anyone else not understand by now? that's why i dont get. people see the denouncing of morales as an endorsement of the tpa's, they think it is either/or, when I dont like either one, but they refuse to accept that paradigm.

so as soon as they see me denounce the fde's, they say "see , Roste endorses the TPA companies." I won't give them that satisfaction, because if anybody took a few minutes to look on the web, they will see many statements I have made that take the fde's to task. If they don't want to look for them, that is not my problem.

do you really think i think the fde's do a good job? I don't have to take up anyone elses banner. i take up my own.

If someone is vehemently against drunk driving, and that is their cause all day long, and I am against spousal abuse and I like to bring that to light as #1 problem, just because I don't put drunk driving first as my cause, it doesn't mean I am for drunk driving! Do you guys get it by now?

People will accuse someone of being for drunk driving if that person doesn't give up their cause they hold close to their heart and take up someone elses as #1.

Richard, give up dolphins and take up saving the spotted owls, if you don't then you must want to see the owls wiped out. Is that fair?

That's how people portray me and I resent it. End of the FDE discussion because I can only say it 63,000 times. I have told Fudd this many, many times, and he doesn't care, and only spreads the rumors about me that I resent. Take his side and do what you want with it. It's a straw man argument, always has been, and always will be.

Travis - copy and paste two or three quotes of yours on any website that come from an attack of yours against the FDE's and I will then believe your side of this story and you will have a convert now.
People do not see the denouncing of FDE's as an endorsement of the alphabet guys. At least I don't and I have never seen such a statement from anyone on this board stating that.
Fuddj dounces both sides regularly. Chris Williams denounces both sides. I denounce all of them. You have not done that here to the best of my knowledge.
All of the people on this board denounce the FDE's and are awakening to what the alphabet guys are doing.
OK, lets see those statements of yours from the past where you denounce the FDE's. Ok??

[thetruthisoutthere]

Excellent posts by Richard Simon and Chuck Tapia (Fuddjcal).

If Travis wants to be anti-third party, then that’s his choice, but here's my issue with you, Travis. You continue to rant day after day against third-party authenticators, but when confronted about why you don't rant against an FDE like Chris Morales, you claim (and I'm paraphrasing) "that it's old news." Well, as long as Chris Morales continues to "authenticate" crap for Coach's Corner, it will never be old news.

I'm sure there's a reason why you don't rant against an FDE like Chris Morales; maybe you're afraid of offending someone, but that is your choice.

Tell me, Travis, can you show me ten Muhammad Ali signed items that are authenticated by Chris Morales that are 100% authentic? Can you? Can you show me ten Babe Ruth signed baseballs that are authenticated by Chris Morales that are 100% authentic?

I have yet to see anything that Morales has authenticated that is actually authentic; so in my book, he is wrong 100% of the time. As a matter of fact, I just checked the Morales certed items in this month's Coach's Corner listings and once again I did not see one item that he certed that in my opinion is authentic. Of course, I tried to do that on Ebay, but there are no Chris Morales certed autographs on Ebay because he is on Ebay's "Banned COA List."

Of course, Travis, you always mention the dollar amounts when you post a rant against PSA. But what about the Morales certed dollar amounts, Travis? Are those dollar amounts irrelevant? Maybe you think the people that buy that crap don't matter and have no impact on the hobby. Do you really think that a Babe Ruth signed baseball certed by Chris Morales, that sells on the Coach's Corner auction site for $400.00, isn't a big deal? Well, it is a big deal when you discover that $400.00 ball ends up being sold in a retail store in Las Vegas for ten times the purchase price. But I guess those "dollar amounts" aren't a big deal.

Travis, what about the person who bought the below pathetic Derek Jeter forgery? I guess the dollar amount the buyer paid for this piece-of-crap Jeter forgery doesn't count.

Jeter-TMueller-Forgery.jpg


Travis, you once wrote "6 FDE items = what? 60 bucks? They are selling Mantle, Williams & DiMaggio for $10 each? And the FDE's are the problem? Sheesh!"

First of all, you write "6 FDE items = what? 60 bucks?" The number "6" you quote is actually in the thousands. And those thousands of items sold anywhere between $1.00 and $200.00. Not to mention the profit-making shipping charges. But for argument sake, let's say the number is only "6." Are telling me, that when those "6" discover that their FDE certed autographs are forgeries, that it doesn't matter to those "6" buyers? As a matter of fact, hundreds of those buyers tried to flip that crap on Ebay and I can almost guarantee, that most, if not all of them, were removed.

Judging from your comments, Travis, the mistakes made by "XYZ" and "ABC" are having a major impact on the hobby. Does that mean that the thousands of pieces of crap certed by Morales over the past eight years haven't had a major impact on the hobby?

You and other people jumped all over John Reznikoff when he made a mistake on the Pawn Stars reality show, but not a peep about Drew Max, FDE, when, after he examined a FDR Letter To Clergy, said on the Pawn Stars reality show "When you put it all together, there's only one conclusion, this thing is definitely authentic." Even though that FDR Letter To Clergy was a clear reproduction and one of 121, 700 reproductions sent to clergymen throughout the US. But not a peep about Drew Max from you or the other people.

Below is the link to the story I wrote about the FDR Letter To Clergy.

http://live.autographmagazine.com/pr...to-clergy-pawn

What you do, Travis, is called selective bashing; and you have every right to do that, Travis, just like I have every right to call, what you do, as selective bashing.

Has PSA made mistakes? Yes. Has JSA made mistakes? Yes. Now here's a real number. During the eight years of looking at Chris Morales certed autographs, I have yet to see one autograph that I would consider authentic. Not one. And I would bet my life that PSA has a huge rejection database. Does Chris Morales even have a rejection database?

If I had a choice between someone who gets it right between 96%-99% of the time and someone who gets it wrong between 99% and 100% of the time, who do you think I'm going to choose?

[RichardSimon]

Here ya go guys, 5 more authenticated 1939 HOF induction pieces on the net.
I blew up the size of some of them so you could get a better look at the signatures, that accounts for the slight fuzzy look on a couple of them.
Any comments?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Here ya go guys, 5 more authenticated 1939 HOF induction pieces on the net.
I blew up the size of some of them so you could get a better look at the signatures, that accounts for the slight fuzzy look on a couple of them.
Any comments?

Holy crap!!! Those are authenticated!!! What a horrific set of forgeries!!!

[Caseyatbat]

Richard, these 5 items you posted may have been authenticated, but I would bet my life none of them were authenticated by the 2 major TPA's. These 5 items are all straight out of CC and most likely sold for pennies. Infact, I think these items should be used as an example why TPA's are important. They would never pass a respected TPA.

[Bilko G]

you gotta also think these guys signed hundreds if not thousands of autographs that weekend and another thing to think about is how many were signed straight sober and how many were signed when some of these guys were drunk?