t207 Donnelly

[tonyo]

I've been following t207s for a few months now and it seems I have heard from some that Donnelly is among the toughest in the set.

The bid on the Donnelly that ended on ebay recently flew by my limit, but I was expecting it to end higher than it did. Maybe in the 300-400 range?

What effect does the back being Anon have as compared to Broadleaf?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1912-T207-BR...item336f942f87

[sb1]

It is indeed one of the toughest T207's in the set. The Anonymous back does not generally bring as much as the Broadleaf, nor does the Broadleaf fetch as much as the Cycle, yet all three are probably about the same rarity. The card was on the lower end of the grading spectrum, just a bit nicer and a few upgraders would probably have joined the bidding and a resulting higher price.

[barrysloate]

Donnelly is tough, Donlin is much much tougher.

[tonyo]

Below is the list of t207 Broadleaf class cards in order of "value" according to 2011 SCD.

Does this list mirror actual difficulty?


Irving Lewis (emblem on sleeve)
Irving Lewis (no emblem)
Mike Donlin
Louis Lowdermilk
Ward Miller (Chicago)
George Weaver
---large jump---
Joseph Benz
Barney Pelty
George Tyler
Victor Saier
---small jump----
Arthur Rasmussen
Don Carlos Ragan
Morris Rath
George Mogridge
John B. Adams
William Cunningham
Charles Herzog
----26 others (including Donnelly)all tied--------
Roy Miller (Boston)
Eugene Woodburn
Tom Downey
---the following 4 are valued similarly to Recruit class cards----
Grover Hartley
Jay Kirke
Otto Miller (Brooklyn)
G. Harris White

[Sixtofan]

There is a wonderful article in vcbc detailing the t207 set including a survey of scarcity. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in the set

[sb1]

No.... quite a few differences from reality.

I would leave Lewis No emblem and W/emblem up there, as well as Donlin, Donnelly and Downey also would make my top 5, from there it gets pretty much up to individual experience. Tyler and Saier, along with a decently centered Speaker are tough.

Years ago Ragan, Rath and Rasmussen were considered quite difficult, but have proven to not be that rare. Woods and Weaver bring strong money but neither are hard to find. And the other two of the big three, Lowdermilk and Miller are available in many auctions every year.

Back to the top, the Lewis No Emblem has less than a handful known and the With Emblem can be just about as tough to find, especially anything above G-VG.

My random thoughts and experience. I put this set together about 10 years ago, when I could still buy groups with all of the backs in them, in other words unpicked, which gives one a better sense of real scarcity. The follow up work by Tim Newcomb further proved the difficulty and the nuances of the T207's.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by tonyo

Below is the list of t207 Broadleaf class cards in order of "value" according to 2011 SCD.

Does this list mirror actual difficulty?


Irving Lewis (emblem on sleeve)
Irving Lewis (no emblem)
Mike Donlin
Louis Lowdermilk
Ward Miller (Chicago)
George Weaver
---large jump---
Joseph Benz
Barney Pelty
George Tyler
Victor Saier
---small jump----
Arthur Rasmussen
Don Carlos Ragan
Morris Rath
George Mogridge
John B. Adams
William Cunningham
Charles Herzog
----26 others (including Donnelly)all tied--------
Roy Miller (Boston)
Eugene Woodburn
Tom Downey
---the following 4 are valued similarly to Recruit class cards----
Grover Hartley
Jay Kirke
Otto Miller (Brooklyn)
G. Harris White

Based on my having put together this set 3 times and also current want lists, the Mogridge and Pelty are right behind Lewis no emblem and Donlin. Benz' are plentiful among the rarer cards and should be lowered in to the final group. Sweeney and Ragan should be next in terms of scarcity.
Two Recruit backs, Block and Scott should be in the top 8 of all cards in the set. If you are looking for T207s in EXMT or better, Block, Scott and Wallace are next to impossible.
Just my 2 cents....

[tbob]

Wagner with the Carrigan back could be the toughest card in the set.

[tonyo]

Originally Posted by Sixtofan

There is a wonderful article in vcbc detailing the t207 set including a survey of scarcity. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in the set

I briefly tried to find that article (those articles - seems there were 2) or the vcbc issues, but couldn't come up with it without buying *almost* the whole run of vcbc....... haven't looked in a while though!

[tonyo]

Originally Posted by tbob

Based on my having put together this set 3 times and also current want lists, the Mogridge and Pelty are right behind Lewis no emblem and Donlin. Benz' are plentiful among the rarer cards and should be lowered in to the final group. Sweeney and Ragan should be next in terms of scarcity.
Two Recruit backs, Block and Scott should be in the top 8 of all cards in the set. If you are looking for T207s in EXMT or better, Block, Scott and Wallace are next to impossible.
Just my 2 cents....

Thanks everyone.

tbob's top 8 in the set:

Lewis emblem
Lewis no emblem
Donlin
Mogridge/Pelty
Sweeney/Ragan
Block/Scott (both recruit)

sb1's top 5:
Lewis emblem
Lewis no emblem
Donlin
Donnelly/Downey


sb1 honroable mention: Bauman, Tyler and Saier (broadleaf) centered Speaker (recruit)

[sb1]

I convinced Bob Lemke to delist the Carrigan and Wagner wrong backs several years ago. They are simply printing errors of sheet alignment, even when found they are not completely aligned front and back. I have other wrong backs that occurred due to this process as well.

They are NOT part of the T207 set.

[sb1]

Here are two backs showing the o/c back of other cards, while not shown the fronts are normally centered.

Also forgot to put Bauman on the list as one of the toughies.

[tonyo]

Thanks for posting those backs sb1.

Interesting to read that Rube Oldring contributed a home run off Marquard in the world series!

[Bridwell]

Interesting thread. I've been working on T207s steadily for 3 years now. That list from SCD is a lot different from my experience. It is also a lot different from the 2007 Standard Catalog I have.

In short, some of the toughest T207s seem more common to me. This would include Loudermilk and Ward Miller where there have been many sold in auctions the last couple of years. Even Benz, Donnelly and Sweeney have popped up several times in the last year.

Surprisingly, the more common ones listed such as Doc White can be pretty tough. And a few of the Recruit backs come up for sale very rarely. When guys are working on sets, the competition can be fierce in the auctions. One card may sell for $50, another for $500.

[frohme]

Agreed with the responses above. I also think that perceptions of difficulty in the range of tough cards comes down to personal experience. They're all tough, and if you happened to pick up a Bauman, Bushelman, Pelty or Mogridge by sheer timing, you'd probably not think it to be that difficult - tbob or Rob A may not happen agree with you.

As others have said, points of the SCD list are a ways off from my experience as well. Completely agree that the Benz is one of the easiest in the Broadleaf class (as is Herzog, IMO), but also feel that you could poll the group of T207 collectors on the difficulty of individual cards and get fairly disparate answers ... depending on when they collected, the grade of cards they wanted, etc... (e.g. ask the Cubs team collectors about Miller and Saier). As tbob says above, even some of the Recruit cards in higher grades can be a real bitch. While more are coming out and being graded over time, we're nowhere near the pops of T205s or 6s, and likely never will be.

Many of the tougher cards appear only a couple times a year at best - sometimes much less often, and sometimes only in group lots, oddly. Some of the previous responders would probably agree that "you get 'em when and where you can in whatever grade you can and upgrade later". There really are sleepers in the set that seem much more difficult than others. Lew's Encyclopedia and the VCBC articles by Tim and Bob give good indication of what those are, your experience will fill in the details.

I'd also say that if you find any Broadleaf-class card for sale at "Recruit" pricing - its a deal. Some are on par with the harder recruits, yes, but not the run-of-the-mill first half (or so) of the set.

My two cents.
--
Mike

[caramelcard]

"I also think that perceptions of difficulty in the range of tough cards comes down to personal experience. They're all tough, and if you happened to pick up a Bauman, Bushelman, Pelty or Mogridge by sheer timing, you'd probably not think it to be that difficult."


Couldn't agree more.

One of the first tougher backed card I picked up was Donlin. Just luck and timing.

Tbob and others like Scott B, Alan, Ron and Mike would probably have the best perspective because they've collected the set multiple times or gone after master sets which is almost impossible imo. 1 Time is enough for me.

[Bridwell]

I would estimate there are at least 20 complete sets (or near complete) safely tucked away by collectors. That takes 20 of each of the rare series cards "out of play" as it were. So anyone doing a set now is going to have trouble finding all of the rare series cards.

[tonyo]

I counted the number of times cards were mentioned as "difficult" in this thread:

Mike Donlin 4
Irving Lewis (emblem on sleeve) 4
Charley Bauman 2
Irving Lewis (no emblem) 2
George Mogridge 2
Barney Pelty 2
Victor Saier 2
J.F. Bushelman 2
Edward Donnely 1
Tom Downey 1
Ward Miller (Chicago) 1
George Tyler 1
G. Harris White 1


And the number of times cards were mentioned as "not as difficult as perceived"

Joseph Benz 3
Don Carlos Ragan 2
William J. Sweeney 2
Edward Donnely 1
Charles Herzog 1
Louis Lowdermilk 1
Ward Miller (Chicago) 1
Arthur Rasmussen 1
Morris Rath 1
George Weaver 1

[tonyo]

Originally Posted by tonyo

I counted the number of times cards were mentioned as "difficult" in this thread:

G. Harris White 1

Oddly, in the 2011 SCD White is valued even lower thn most Recruit class cards.

I understand the validity(lack of) everyone places on SCD $$values, but I still use it pretty religiously as a general relative guide, checklist, and set card identifier ----

Just thought that price point was really out-of-place.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by tonyo

Oddly, in the 2011 SCD White is valued even lower thn most Recruit class cards.

I understand the validity(lack of) everyone places on SCD $$values, but I still use it pretty religiously as a general relative guide, checklist, and set card identifier ----

Just thought that price point was really out-of-place.

Tony, you are absolutely correct. Merry Christmas and happy collecting!

[frohme]

Like Donlin for Rob, I picked up White pretty early on... thankfully. Hardly have seen another in ~3yrs outside of the near sets or the set-breaks. IIRC, about a year ago, there was a eBay run of most of the cards from a set break, most of the cards, range of grades as well. White (w/Cycle back) went for a pretty penny, I believe.

Others have also had the same experience - that price point is out of place.
--
Mike

[marcdelpercio]

I would also rank White as one of the least frequently seen. The price guides are pretty irrelevant for this set as the majority of the Broadleaf/Cycle cards are priced the same, despite many vastly different levels of scarcity and value. I have followed the set pretty closely for several years. For what it's worth, my top 5 toughest would be, in no particular order:

Donlin
Pelty
Mogridge
Downey
Kuhn

Close behind would be:

White
McCarthy
Birmingham
Hartley
Donnelly

I have not seen more than 2-3 of most of these for sale individually over the span of at least the past 5 years. Many of the others mentioned above are really pretty close to that same level.

[frohme]

Originally Posted by marcdelpercio

... The price guides are pretty irrelevant for this set as the majority of the Broadleaf/Cycle cards are priced the same, despite many vastly different levels of scarcity and value. ...

Totally agreed, Marc - I threw the price guide out the day I started actively going after the set, rather than just the Pirates. I think it was the raw Donlin that went for almost $400 on eBay back in late '06 or '07. I had just joined the old board if I recall... I was blown out of the water on that one and started reading up on the set - the rest continues to be a learning experience.

It is a set where your experience is your best guide. While it can mislead you, its more likely to be right than any guide - all it takes is a little/enough time in under your belt. VCP helps, but at this point there's really not enough data to draw firm conclusions on the really tough cards.

My cents # 3 & 4.
--
Mike

[bh3443]

Hello Friends,
Thank you for all the sharing on this subject. I've always liked this series.
Best Regards,
Bill Hedin

PS: The Joe Wood and Buck Weaver have long been my favorites in this fine set!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bh3443

Hello Friends,
Thank you for all the sharing on this subject. I've always liked this series.
Best Regards,
Bill Hedin

PS: The Joe Wood and Buck Weaver have long been my favorites in this fine set!

Hi Bill
Weaver is one of my favorites too and I picked this one up around 10 yrs ago...
take care
leon

[bh3443]

Hi Leon,
Thanks for showing that Weaver! Man, it's a beauty and perhaps my favorite card of him!
Interesting story on the T207 Smokey Joe Wood card is that Joe Wood was a guest at a Boston Show in 1980 (Joe's son was a prominant dealer here in New England for decades) and he was signing. However, promoter Joe King ( I bought the promoters collection and MAN was it loaded!) did not have anything available to get signed.
I scoured the room and bought a triple folder and a 207 from Ernie White ( remember him? Founded Tuff Stuff) and Mr. Wood signed them for me. I had them but sold them in the early 1990's.
Like you, Leon, I love the stories such as this to go with the cards! Alas, I'm an old man with many tales such as this from my interesting life with cards. I'm glad we can share them along with our cards here on Net 54.
Everyone, have a wonderful New Year!
Your Friend,
Bill Hedin
PS: This is my 700th post,lol, I guess I talk too much! :O)

[sox1903wschamp]

Hi Bill: Thanks for the interesting Joe Wood signing story!

And I still need a Broadleaf, Anon or any back Bushelman so he gets my vote for being tough since I finished the rest of the Boston American subset at least 2 years ago .

[bh3443]

Originally Posted by sox1903wschamp

Hi Bill: Thanks for the interesting Joe Wood signing story!

And I still need a Broadleaf, Anon or any back Bushelman so he gets my vote for being tough since I finished the rest of the Boston American subset at least 2 years ago .

Thanks for the kind words! I have so many fond memories such as those and I'm really happy to share them. I really get smiling when you & Leon mentioned them!

I have to say that our hobby has been simply wonderful to guys like me.
I mean, making a living in this hobby/industry all these decades has been great. For me, it's the people like all of you here that keep me going! I never log out of Net 54 and I check it constantly to see if I missed anything!

I'm getting some T 207's, too! This thread sparked my interest so I picked up a few cards already! Leon is good for the card economy by giving us Net 54!

Thanks for giving me a fun project to work on!

Regards,
Bill

[bestsmoke]

Adams!

[tonyo]

I've been meaning to add these two links to this thread and ask if the t207 collectors found these prices to be as expected?

SGC 30 Mogridge $647

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...vip=true&rt=nc

SGC 10 Donlin $873

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...vip=true&rt=nc

[bestsmoke]

Yes. They are tough! However, I would rather wait on a higher grade. A PSA 5.5 Donlin sold recently for under $4K. The only 2 higher graded are MC.