This sums it up about Jeter and 3000

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by packs

At one time there was probably close to a million Babe Ruth signed items. I don't think he ever thought to ask for a penny and the man grew up with nothing.

Yeah. As I said before, the man did nothing but leak. I guess he just had a different "business model."

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by packs

At one time there was probably close to a million Babe Ruth signed items. I don't think he ever thought to ask for a penny and the man grew up with nothing.

To me, that is a damn shame.

[David Atkatz]

Yeah. A real shame. But ya know what? He died beloved. And rich, too.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Yeah. As I said before, the man did nothing but leak. I guess he just had a different "business model."

Nobody was making money off of his items at the time and leaving him without anything. Autographs weren't a business back then. I am sorry you do not seem to appreciate that it is today, or the positive impact thatbthe modern business has on your historic crap, which I choose not to go find on my own.

[David Atkatz]

I understand that selling your own autograph to kids is a business. I understand it just fine. But you're right. I don't appreciate it.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Jeter deserves every cent he can get? Really? Why?

For me it is simple. If you work for a living, you should be paid based on the demand for your services. If you are Julia Roberts and the movie company will pay you $25m for your next starring role, I do not think she should turn it down because it is too much money.

Supply and demand are really simple concepts. I use the word "deserve" in that context; as opposed to the teachers and firefighters who "deserve" more money for plying their crafts, but don't get it because the demand for their services cannot keep up with the supply.

[packs]

I think where we disagree is in our point of view towards autographs. You see them purely as a business. I do not. I see them as a natural part of the game in most scenarios. If you go to a show where a player is charging money, that is an entirely different situation than going to the ballpark or spring training to get a few autographs. I don't think asking a player for his autograph has anything to do with business or mooching from a rich person for most of the people asking. I expect a player to stop and sign for fans. Whether or not he signs for me specifically.

[David Atkatz]

No. You don't turn it down. But neither do you refuse to sign autographs for the fans who actually pay that $25M, in order to sell them, instead.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

I understand that selling your own autograph to kids is a business. I understand it just fine. But you're right. I don't appreciate it.

Ask the kids who get their Steiner Jeter3K balls under the Christmas Tree this year if they appreciate it. Would you prefer that the working parents chase Jeter onto his next helicopter to give their son such a present? Or can we just send $500 to a service to provide it to me overnight?

If I want to get my mom a Paul O'Neill autographed 8x10, is it okay for me to pay Paul's service? Or do I have to run into him randomly on the street corner? Hope I have my photo with me when that happens!

are yesterday's athletes permitted to sign autographs at card shows for money, or is that also a breach of their dignity?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

No. You don't turn it down. But neither do you refuse to sign autographs for the fans who actually pay that $25M, in order to sell them, instead.

Do you just drop what you're doing always? Do you have an obligation to make public viewings? Can Derek go to a Mall and buy jeans without signing and posing with everyone who asks him? Have you ever had a conversation with a celebrity about how hard it really is to just do normal things, only to realize how much about your normal life you actually take for granted?

[David Atkatz]

Why can't you just mail Paul a photo, with a SASE, and he signs it and mails it back, without charging $50 or so. That used to be the "business model," when I was growing up. It was called "giving something back."

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by packs

I think where we disagree is in our point of view towards autographs. You see them purely as a business. I do not. I see them as a natural part of the game in most scenarios. If you go to a show where a player is charging money, that is an entirely different situation than going to the ballpark or spring training to get a few autographs. I don't think asking a player for his autograph has anything to do with business or mooching from a rich person for most of the people asking. I expect a player to stop and sign for fans. Whether or not he signs for me specifically.

I agree, to a degree. Jeter himself has stopped and signed for me for free at least three times that I can remember: while working out with Posada at the Indians old home on Winter Lakes, FL; while stretching before a game at the old stadium; and, while entering the press gate at the old stadium. I've personally witnessed him sign about a zillion things for free for fans over th years. If you had a bad experience, it happens. If I knew you better I'd tell you my Tony Gwynn story when we were both staying at the same hotel back in 1998.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Why can't you just mail Paul a photo, with a SASE, and he signs it and mails it back, without charging $50 or so. That used to be the "business model," when I was growing up. It was called "giving something back."

When Paul's auto became valuable, he grew skeptical of signing freebies in the mail, only to find them for sale at $50 a pop at the local card show or on eBay. The collecting public ruined that practice, not the athletes.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Do you just drop what you're doing always? Do you have an obligation to make public viewings? Can Derek go to a Mall and buy jeans without signing and posing with everyone who asks him? Have you ever had a conversation with a celebrity about how hard it really is to just do normal things, only to realize how much about your normal life you actually take for granted?

I don't know where you live, but here in NYC one sees "celebrities" on the street every day. And, for the most part, they are left completely unbothered. And when they are bothered, yes, it's their obligation to be gracious about it. I know one or two "celebrities" personally, and, believe me, their lives aren't nearly as hard as you seem to think.

[T206Collector]

Fellas,

I rally enjoy this dialogue, but I have to get to sleep here on the East Coast. In closing for now, I would just say that in my view a lot of the vitriol spouted at athletes these days ignores a few fundamental and universal concepts that go with the territory in the 21st C. It is just unfair to blame that all on the athletes.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

I don't know where you live, but here in NYC one sees "celebrities" on the street every day. And, for the most part, they are left completely unbothered. And when they are bothered, yes, it's their obligation to be gracious about it. I know one or two "celebrities" personally, and, believe me, their lives aren't nearly as hard as you seem to think.

I live in NY as well. Yankee players like Jeter are more plagued by the streetwalkers than, say, a movie star, many of whom live in NYc because they don't get harassed typically. I think you'd agree that Jeter walking down 5th avenue would get stopped constantly.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

When Paul's auto became valuable, he grew skeptical of signing freebies in the mail, only to find them for sale at $50 a pop at the local card show or on eBay. The collecting public ruined that practice, not the athletes.

Really? Paul didn't have enough money? He had to be upset that he wasn't making that $50? He couldn't just live with the fact that he had done the right thing? That's called greed. Consider our system of justice. You know, "Better ten guilty men go free, than one innocent man be punished." It's kinda like that. Yeah, some will take advantage of Paul's "generosity," and make a few bucks. But that's better than cutting off all those fans who just want their hero's autograph.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I live in NY as well. Yankee players like Jeter are more plagued by the streetwalkers than, say, a movie star, many of whom live in NYc because they don't get harassed typically. I think you'd agree that Jeter walking down 5th avenue would get stopped constantly.

No. I don't agree. And "streetwalkers" are not usually hanging out on 5th Ave.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Really? Paul didn't have enough money? He had to be upset that he wasn't making that $50? He couldn't just live with the fact that he had done the right thing? That's called greed. Consider our system of justice. You know, "Better ten guilty men go free, than one innocent man be punished." It's kinda like that. Yeah, some will take advantage of Paul's "generosity," and make a few bucks. But that's better than cutting off all those fans who just want their hero's autograph.

Unfortunately the perception, real or perceived, is that virtually every autograph that was being given for free was being sold rather quickly. Of course, players still sign for fans for free anyway, but it really shouldn't surprise anyone that the players got tired of seeing their autographs routinely selling without realizing any cut of that.

Also, last point before bed, Steiner certifies autographs. In a world marred by fraud, at least when you pay big bucks, you know you're getting the genuine article.

Goodnight!

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

No. I don't agree. And "streetwalkers" are not usually hanging out on 5th Ave.

Ha, yes, I meant pedestrians and tourists.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

This thread really surprises me.

First of all, doesn't anyone see this as the social phenomenon that it is? The people are starved for an athlete that they can support who has not and is unlikely to let them down because of off-field behavior.

Second, this is a memorabilia board. To see people on a memorabilia board -- including someone who actually charges money to authenticate autographs (http://richardsimonsports.com/authentication.htm) -- chiding the collecting public and those who rise to the excessive demand in the market, is ironic to say the least.

Since when has monetizing baseball memorabilia been equated with the Devil, or being un-American?

Pathetic.

I am not going to jump into this argument, I just want to thank T206 for posting a link to my website.

[T206Collector]

You're quite welcome. Be careful not to get too successful in your authentication business, lest you succumb to the foibles of greed and soullessness.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

You're quite welcome. Be careful not to get too successful in your authentication business, lest you succumb to the foibles of greed and soullessness.

As most everyone here knows I buy and sell autographs and authentication is not my main business,,,but again, thanks for the plug.
And fyi, my rates are MUCH lower than the big 2.
I don't think I have succumbed to greed and I think the people that know me, know that very well.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

As most everyone here knows I buy and sell autographs and authentication is not my main business,,,but again, thanks for the plug.
And fyi, my rates are MUCH lower than the big 2.
I don't think I have succumbed to greed and I think the people that know me, know that very well.

If you think I was suggesting that, you miss my point. Steiner's main business is selling autographs, too. You may disagree with his business model, but it is hard to gripe with his success.

[RichardSimon]

That is true.
Millions of dollars for selling dirt,,, how can you argue with that?
(I am referring to Yankee Stadium dirt, not calling his merchandise dirt).

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

That is true.
Millions of dollars for selling dirt,,, how can you argue with that?
(I am referring to Yankee Stadium dirt, not calling his merchandise dirt).

Like that idiot Poland Springs guy who sells water. Who would buy water if they can get it for free?

[ChiefBenderForever]

Wow this was quite the read. I understand both sides and think it all has become bordering on insanity. Our cultures appetite to be close to those bigger than life figures has always been around but with todays technology the superstars get no relief. I watched the documentary 'Teenage Paparazzo' and was kind of surprised to see how every moment of many peoples lives is constantly documented with video and photo, they literally have no private life. An interesting twist was when director Adrian Grenier decided to flip the switch and turned the cameras on the Paparazzo to understand where they are coming from and they got very upset, covered their faces, yelled, ran away, didn't want to talk, threatened harm, ect ect. They wanted privacy and to be left alone but yet make their living off of the exact same thing.
It's easy to say that because someone is making all this money they should stop and sign or talk to everyone that approaches them but what if it was you ? What if you were in a hurry, or had a headache, or bad mood, or were just so sick of everyone who saw you running up to you asking for something ? Then you know half the people just want to sell what you gave them anyways so what is the point, how do you tell who is a fan and who isn't, and if you sign for everyone will you ever get anything done ? But if you sit down and sign for a few hours in a controlled environment and get X amount of dollars so be it.
Society created the monster that feeds the greed, but the ones we worship have to live in it and deal with it, no matter how much money they make not sure what price some peace and privacy is worth.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by ChiefBenderForever

Society created the monster that feeds the greed, but the ones we worship have to live in it and deal with it, no matter how much money they make not sure what price some peace and privacy is worth.

+1

[Exhibitman]

I don't think the people who are put off by the situation with Jeter are saying that they should get something for nothing or that athletes owe them something for free. I think their comments reflect a growing frustration with the attitude that is prevalent in our culture, which is take all you can grab in every context at all times, give nothing back, and damn everyone else. I don't think it is wrong for Jeter (or anyone else) to charge for autographs at a show, through mail order, etc.--it is a service rendered and if it is overpriced or unwanted, don't buy it--but I do think it is wrong when the prevalent view among athletes becomes that an unpaid autograph is something to be frowned upon, wheither you call it a freebie, brand dilution, leakage, etc. It is called "public relations" and at the right time and place is part of being in the entertainment industry. As a public person/celebrity who earns millions trading on the goodwill of the public as a product endorser, one of the things Jeter accepts as part of the deal is the duty [yes, it is a duty] to do right by the people who support him. I find it appalling when a ballplayer refuses to sign for a fan (unless the situation is very, very inappropriate, like in a bathroom), especially when the justification is that the fan might sell the item. If an athlete makes millions playing baseball and endorsing products that he expects kids to purchase based on his endorsements, guess what, the athletes is a role model and with that privilege comes responsibility. One of the reasons I have gone from a rabid fan who had season tickets to a person who rarely watches the game and never attends is the attitude towards the fans exhibited by players and management. Not wanting to be taken advantage of goes both ways.

Some athletes and celebrities get it. Around 1978 I was at brunch in Woodland Hills with my family and Steve Garvey and his family were in the restaurant too. At that time Garvey was the golden boy in LA; MVP/All Star, pennant winning teams, etc. A line of kids stacked up at his table. He said hello to each kid who had the nerve to approach him and signed for each one of them when he could easily have said no. I hated the Dodgers at the time (Yankees fan) and wasn't even interested in meeting him but I appreciated the effort he made. Manny Pacquiao, who has way more of a worldwide fan base than Jeter or any other US baseball player, is a willing and gracious signer. Muhammad Ali, certainly a bigger celebrity than any ballplayer, signed willingly and happily for fans before he became too ill to accommodate publicly. Even celebs are better at it than most ballplayers. I ran into Sylvester Stallone a few times around LA and every time he was courteous and signed for the fans who approached him. Anyone recall seeing George Clooney at the Oscars a few years ago cross Hollywood Blvd. to sign autographs for fans behind the barricades?

Don't get me wrong; I don't expect our heroes to be saints (unless they are saints, of course). There have always been great signers and bad signers; goes with personality. But don't tell me that taking two seconds to sign an autograph for a fan isn't part of the business. Jeter or anyone else isn't too big and too important to do the right thing, especially when they put themselves out there as role models and endorsers and are enriched by our good will. Babe Ruth is beloved not just because he was a great player but because of the way he treated his fans. In The Glory of Their Times Jimmy Austin described seeing Ruth sign for fans for hours on end, for nothing. My father still fondly recalls Babe Ruth nodding hello to him on Park Avenue in NYC when he was a kid.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Like that idiot Poland Springs guy who sells water. Who would buy water if they can get it for free?

Or those dirtbags who charge money to tell you that your near mint card is near mint.

[T206Collector]

I get the growing frustration aspect, but I think it is goofy to get too upset by it. It is like complaining about $15 movie tickets and $8 popcorn at the theater. "When I was a kid, a nickel got me a trolley ride from Battery Park to the Polo Grounds, and I still had change for a hot dog."

This growing frustration began in 1869, folks, when the amateurs became professionals. It has only evolved over time. The perception that life was simpler when you could tip your cap to Babe Ruth on the street 70 years ago is just that, a perception. People hated Ruth for making more money than the President.

And Ruth didn't have 15 reporters in front of his clubhouse locker hours before and after every single game, trying to fill a 24-hour news cycle, the bloggosphere, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, etc.

[ChiefBenderForever]

If you have a job and money in your pocket are you obligated to give every homeless person who asks you for spare change some money ? How do you know who really will spend it on food, or a bottle, rock, or isn't even homeless but makes more begging than working ? And how annoyed do you get with the constant bagering from them ?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by ChiefBenderForever

If you have a job and money in your pocket are you obligated to give every homeless person who asks you for spare change some money ? How do you know who really will spend it on food, or a bottle, rock, or isn't even homeless but makes more begging than working ? And how annoyed do you get with the constant bagering from them ?

There are homeless in Connecticut ??

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by ChiefBenderForever

If you have a job and money in your pocket are you obligated to give every homeless person who asks you for spare change some money ? How do you know who really will spend it on food, or a bottle, rock, or isn't even homeless but makes more begging than working ? And how annoyed do you get with the constant bagering from them ?

That's a different scenario and a red herring argument. Signing a name costs a celebrity nothing; handing my money to a stranger costs me the money. And I am not making millions on the good will of the general public. A celebrity doesn't owe me jack; but if he wants my continued patronage as a customer of his business and his sponsors he'd better not be a dick.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I get the growing frustration aspect, but I think it is goofy to get too upset by it. It is like complaining about $15 movie tickets and $8 popcorn at the theater. "When I was a kid, a nickel got me a trolley ride from Battery Park to the Polo Grounds, and I still had change for a hot dog."

This growing frustration began in 1869, folks, when the amateurs became professionals. It has only evolved over time. The perception that life was simpler when you could tip your cap to Babe Ruth on the street 70 years ago is just that, a perception. People hated Ruth for making more money than the President.

And Ruth didn't have 15 reporters in front of his clubhouse locker hours before and after every single game, trying to fill a 24-hour news cycle, the bloggosphere, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, etc.

I'm not upset by it; I simply refuse to spend my entertainment money that way. As for the reporters, boo hoo--imagine how it would be if no one gave a damn and no one wrote about them:

Publicity can be terrible. But only if you don't have any.
--Jane Russell

[slidekellyslide]

If Babe Ruth were born and playing in this era he would have a contract with Steiner too, and you wouldn't see him dropping signed baseballs out of hotel windows. So to compare him and his 1920-40s situation to Derek Jeter is not fair. If Derek Jeter played in the 1920-30s he probably would have signed for anyone and everyone for free too.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Sheesh... couldn't Price at least "play hard to get"?

I wonder if Branca was signing balls "I gave up The Shot" less than a week later?

I wonder if Branca ever appeared at any card shows along with Bobby Thomson?

[ChiefBenderForever]

Richard so funny thanks for a good laugh, I think I did see a homeless guy one time or maybe he was from Vermont.
And Adam, not sure it is so different, if time is money, and the auto is worth something isn't it the same thing as someone asking you for money and not free on their part ? And although I do agree with you, what we think of 'them' is irrelavant and won't effect them one bit and they know it. As good as they seem to have it they also have lost any sort of privacy or freedom to enjoy the most basic of things and it has to get so old so fast I would think it gets to be a very lonely world for many of them. And when people like Mays and Bonds have a stigma of being such jerks in public I bet it keeps a lot of people at a distance as they are very careful to approach them. I guess in the end it's a thin red herring........

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I wonder if Branca ever appeared at any card shows along with Bobby Thomson?

Sure he did, quite a lot of them. And........he answered his mail requests for free for decades after his playing days.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I wonder if Branca ever appeared at any card shows along with Bobby Thomson?

I'm sure this is a rhetorical question and you know the answer.

In my view, there is a big difference between signing DECADES later and signing less than a week later. Does Price need the money so badly that he must sign NOW? Where is the professional pride?

And by the way, I don't begrudge Ralph Branca one penny. I met him and Bobby many times and had them sign many items. It was always a pleasure.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Sure he did, quite a lot of them. And........he answered his mail requests for free for decades after his playing days.

Yeah..I knew he did. My point is that he was making money off of giving up the shot just like Price appears to be making money the same way.

I'm actually surprised at the reaction to this whole deal as if it's surprising to anyone on this forum that ballplayers are making money any way they can. If there is a market for it there will be a product....Derek Jeter is popular and there is a market for anything associated with him and 3000 hits at the moment...nobody should be surprised that all parties to this event are cashing in as fast as they can...no one will care 3 or 4 weeks from now...and none of this stuff that they are selling will retain its value other than perhaps the ticket stubs to the game. The t-shirts and hats will all be able to be had for pennies on the dollar on ebay for years to come.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I agree, to a degree. Jeter himself has stopped and signed for me for free at least three times that I can remember: while working out with Posada at the Indians old home on Winter Lakes, FL; while stretching before a game at the old stadium; and, while entering the press gate at the old stadium.

Your experience is better than mine. At the stadium and on the road over the years, he passed me over every time. (Yes, I was polite, not obnoxious, only had 1 item, etc etc.) In my experience, he'd sign for kids and women... passed by men.

I guess the men can afford the $599 so the hell with them.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

I'm sure this is a rhetorical question and you know the answer.

In my view, there is a big difference between signing DECADES later and signing less than a week later. Does Price need the money so badly that he must sign NOW? Where is the professional pride?

And by the way, I don't begrudge Ralph Branca one penny. I met him and Bobby many times and had them sign many items. It was always a pleasure.

When Branca gave up the shot there was no market for his autograph...it wasn't until the baseball card boom of the 80s forward that demand for that kind of stuff lit up. And really this is apples and oranges...the market is shrinking daily (hourly?) for David Price autographs tied to this event. 3000 hits is nice, but this ain't the "Shot heard round the world".

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Sure he did, quite a lot of them. And........he answered his mail requests for free for decades after his playing days.

...until there was a market for them.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

...until there was a market for them.

I sent Thomson and Branca cards over the years and they were always signed for no fee. I believe Branca still signs for free through the mail.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

So what if they are? Are they idiots for collecting modern stuff, any more than we're idiots for collecting stuff of deadballers? Who knows what will sell in the future? And just keep in mind, that the guy who sold me his ticket, bought it for $100 two days ago, before they started going crazy on eBay. Now the kind of ticket I bought for $250 this morning is up over $300 tonight. That's a pretty good investment, if only in the short term.

You guys spend so much time talking about whether kids today are going to be tomorrow's collectors. DJ3K is the kind of modern event that grows the spirit of all of our collections. Don't ignore that because the marketing is better today, or because Jeter is a once in a lifetime, Mickey Mantle-esque sports icon.

If you really think the modern ballplayer has to stop and sign every piece of paper that is shoved in front of him on the street, or in a restaurant while he is eating with his family, then you understand little about the perils of modern celebrity.

Good points sir... I don't have anything against peddling crap memorabilia, it's a nice memento... Something to share with your kids and such, but you don't actually think that something mass produced as a collectible will ever be worth more then the purchase price right? They're making as many as they can possibly sell right now. Do you think more people will be interested in DJ3K as the years go by? My guess is the moments popularity has already peaked.

I don't have a problem with Jeter squeezing every penny he can from his fame. I also don't have a problem with him blowing people off in the street. When he let that kid give him the ball for free is the moment I decided he was a true a-hole. I'm still waiting for him to fix it.

[David Atkatz]

Keep waiting. He's not even aware there's a problem.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Keep waiting. He's not even aware there's a problem.

There is no problem. The kid gave him the ball...he accepted the ball.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Good points sir... I don't have anything against peddling crap memorabilia, it's a nice memento... Something to share with your kids and such, but you don't actually think that something mass produced as a collectible will ever be worth more then the purchase price right? They're making as many as they can possibly sell right now. Do you think more people will be interested in DJ3K as the years go by? My guess is the moments popularity has already peaked..

We are in total agreement here. The night after McGwire hit number 62, I sold my entire McGwire collection for hundreds of dollars at the local card shop. I totally understand the phenomenon of peak popularity.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

There is no problem. The kid gave him the ball...he accepted the ball.

Hey, Dan. Remember when you were a kid, and you somehow got your friend to give you that toy of his that you wanted? And how happy you were when you brought it home? And then, how your mother made you give it back?

I do.