JSA Story on Autographalert.com

[HRBAKER]

Larry,

If that's the case then they are evaluating a COA from Morales and not a signature. Sure maybe someone has an ax to grind here but this really is the same cautionary tale over and over again. The value in any COA is that there is a perception in a "market" that it has value, to me it has never been anything more than a paid-for best guess. When you look at it like that should it surprise anyone if it's good one time and not the next, personalities aside.

Jeff

[keithsky]

That's the problem anymore. authenticating used to be on all there certs the item was authenticated as genuine now it's just there opinion. Hell anyone can give an opinion on anything and the bad thing is they get paid for a GUESS and then wave all responsibility because it's an opinion. Wish I could go to my job everyday and just give an opinion if I'm doing my job right or wrong. I think I would be fired. As long as people pay for this service they'll continue to stay around.

Keith Janosky

[mcgwirecom]

Obviously he is not doing his due diligence and examining the autograph. I think some authenticators are just spreading themselves too thin with their expertise. I can see someone being an expert on a few autographs but it seems ridiculous to be able to autheticate everything. I wonder what his response was to this. Did the person doing this test inform him at that time?

On a nother note I always felt you could get some PSA graded cards and re-submit them to prove you don't get a Gem Mint 10 grade twice! But who would take the chance of cracking out a 10 and re-submitting it....

[keithsky]

That's what I was saying in my last post, they don't have to take the time to examine anything at any length anymore because it's just an opinion. If they are swamped with orders and spreding them self thin they might just look at something quick and not worry about it since again it's just an opinion and don't have to worry if it's right or wrong since they won't get sued because once again it's just an opinion.

keith Janosky

[David Atkatz]

Christ Almighty! "I'm so glad I never got involved with autographs!"
Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

The problem is not with the "hobby"--one, which, BTW, has preserved a vast amount of historical information we rely on today. Rather, the problem is with self-proclaimed experts working solely for profit, and, even more so, the uneducated collectors who rely on them.

[oriolesbb6]

Would love to hear a JSA response.........

[David Atkatz]

Who cares what they have to say? STOP LISTENING TO THEM!

[oriolesbb6]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Christ Almighty! "I'm so glad I never got involved with autographs!"
Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

The problem is not with the "hobby"--one, which, BTW, has preserved a vast amount of historical information we rely on today. Rather, the problem is with self-proclaimed experts working solely for profit, and, even more so, the uneducated collectors who rely on them.

Funny your avatar is an autographed baseball.....Thats entertaining as well

[David Atkatz]

You miss my point completely. I was quoting others on this thread. I am, if I do say so myself, an educated autograph collector--2011 will mark fifty years of collecting.

(And that 1927 Yankees baseball is one of the centerpieces of my collection.)

[ibuysportsephemera]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Christ Almighty! "I'm so glad I never got involved with autographs!"
Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

The problem is not with the "hobby"--one, which, BTW, has preserved a vast amount of historical information we rely on today. Rather, the problem is with self-proclaimed experts working solely for profit, and, even more so, the uneducated collectors who rely on them.

No need to attack me David...I am allowed my opinion. My statement was about a decision I made at the beginning of my collecting career. I felt uncomfortable making large financial decisions about autographs that I was not present at when they were signed. I decided that I could do without that part of the hobby. If you are 100% comfortable with your knowledge and experience, more power to you. I just didn't want to deal with the doubt.

Jeff

[prewarsports]

If you know what you are doing, autographs are as safe as any other hobby where lots of money changes hand. Cards on the other hand can be bleached, trimmed, glue removed, paper added, etc. At least any potential issues with an autograph are out there to be seen by the naked eye! With any hobby, you buy from people you trust who will stand behind the item forever and that is your comfort, not the 3rd party!

[David Atkatz]

You know, Jeff, every time there's a posting about some "authenticator's" massive f*ck-up, someone (or two, or three...) will post about how happy he is not getting involved with autographs, and implying, of course, that anyone who does is a fool. It's gotten real old, real quickly.
Autographic material is one of the most important--if not the most important--historical reference. We are all indebted to those, throughout the centuries, who have preserved it, passed it on, and made it available to museums, archives, and universities.
The idea that it's only good "if I've seen it signed myself," is as patently absurd as if those on the other side of this board were saying a card is only good "if I've seen it printed myself."
If, by your own admission you know very little about something, it may behoove you to refrain from publicly commenting about it.

[shimozukawa]

.

[shelly]

I saw this story a long time ago on another web site. This is very old news. Look at the dates on the coa's and rejection letters. Why is this dredged up know? Could this have anything to do with a current slander law suit. Just asking.

[perezfan]

It was a set-up, and tantamount to entrapment. The site that exposed this matter clearly has an axe to grind with JSA and PSA. They have a clear agenda and are seeking vengeance.

Granted, JSA should have taken the time to research the auto's and not automatically reject them. But rest assured that the vast number of things done right by JSA/PSA will never appear on this accusatory site.

[Ladder7]

Why this behavior is deemed defendable by anyone here is troubling... Perhaps because you have items authenticated by these schysters and you're concerned yours' may not be legit. Well, most of us have 'em -myself included. Regardless, it's irrelevant.

If theyre innocent, let these millionaires speak up... I expect the silence to be deafening.

Entrapment? someone mentioned. Funny, sexual predators, Johns' and bait-car victims use that very defense.

[David Atkatz]

Gee... How did we ever manage before JSA and PSA? Better throw out all I acquired before the enlightenment.

Who says JSA and PSA are experts? Why... JSA and PSA!

(And Barry... we use realtors because realtors have created the system of home buying and selling. They create and have access to the magical listings. Just as, for many, many things, we use lawyers because we let lawyers create the system that makes them necessary.)

[hcv123]

Who says JSA and PSA are experts? Why... JSA and PSA!

(And Barry... we use realtors because realtors have created the system of home buying and selling. They create and have access to the magical listings. Just as, for many, many things, we use lawyers because we let lawyers create the system that makes them necessary.)

Could have quoted any number of comments to start, but this seemed like a good one. IMHO - the self proclaimed "expert authenticators" have created the system that makes them necessary. As much has been said I will try to make a few succinct points (all my opinions of course):

1) Biased intention aside what JSA did here is at least extremely poor business practice and deserves the highest levels of criticism, questions and scrutiny. If this is how they "authenticate", they should be out of the business.

2) I think the model used is a GREAT way to test autograph authenticators - In person signed pieces should be submitted multiple times to the same authenticators after having been submitted to a different authenticator. Throw in some clear forgeries for good measure with a "good" authenticators cert to test in the other direction as well. Develop some needed percentage of accuracy to be a "certified" authenticator - hey a whole new business model - authenticate the authenticator.

3) Chris Morales has deservedly no respect from any educated collector

4) Caveat Emptor - Like any purchase it is up to the individual to educate him/herself to a level of comfort to make the purchase. If you rely completely on others (who have not earned that trust) then you will likely be burned at some point.

5) PSA has some well deserved criticism here as well - just heard from a friend who cracked a "6" resubmitted and received an "8" - "objective grading standards"? - Not so much!

6) A) Buy the card not the holder. B) Buy the autograph not the cert/opinion!

7) It is too bad that all of this "3rd party" involvement is not at a higher standard as I strongly believe many who could have been active hobby participants have been "burned away".




-Howard Chasser

[Leon]

Tomorrow morning, any post in this thread that does not have a full first and last name, will have one put in the post. Either edit out ya'lls comments, put your name in your post, or I will do it for you tomorrow. Please remember the rules. I really don't care if you say stuff but you have to put your name by it. Any questions, let me know. It's all in the rules. I am not playing favorites or protecting any one or anything.... thanks

edited to say if you are only making a general comment about autographs or the hobby, not about anyone or any company, then your name doesn't have to be in the post.....again, it's all in the rules.

[pscolgrafs]

With all due respect, it essential that the hobby be able to trust SOME OUTFIT out there. If there is no one to trust, there is uncertainty, confusion and collectors will give up. Sure, there are people here that HATE authenticators and proclaim themselves to be experts, but I bet these individuals won't get top dollar for their items since they are rather unknown to a large majority of the collecting population.

After all, didn't David (I believe you are murderer's row on eBay at the time)sell a pencil cut of Chesbro with two authenticating papers to go with it? Why not have it authenticated by PSA or JSA where he could have gotten maybe 5X the amount you got.

And if you sold that 1927 Yankees ball, don't you think you would get some authenticators to agree with your opinion and wouldn't you want to get the most out of it and go to the most popular and marketed firm?

Sure I get frustrated like all of you as I really want to believe these guys are doing a great job, but sometimes they look so damn stupid.

As far as AutographAlert's challenge. That was done so long ago. Old news. I have enclosed to a scan of an Andy Warhol signature that Stephen Koschal has authenticated. Now I don't know the first thing about Andy Warhol, but the cover says March 9, 1987, right? Warhol died on February 22, 1987.

Could it have been signed?

Most likely it was an issue dedicated to the life of a great artist.

[Exhibitman]

Classic...Reminds me of a yellow HOF plaque of Eddie Collins that I saw once offered on Ebay. I emailed to seller to inform him that the card was made several years after Collins' death...

[Lordstan]

Pscolgraphs,
With all due respect to you, I disagree.
What people need to do is their homework. If someone wants to collect something it is imperative that they 1)study what they are collecting, 2) create a network of trustworthy dealers and fellow collectors whom they can rely for guidance and assistance, and 3) understand that the only "guarantee" that means anything at all is the one the seller gives the buyer that they can return an item if they find it's not good.
I have heard no one here proclaim they are "experts", but I know many, including myself, that are comfortable, which some exceptions, making their own decisions about whether an auto is good or not, regardless of which third party person is involved.
The problem with this specific test is not that JSA made a mistake. We have all made mistakes.
The way I see it is that one of two possibilities exist: 1)JSA rejected these items out of hand because of the Morales cert or 2)they are unable to certify items they previously thought were real for multiple reasons.
In the first scenario one could argue, as David stated before, for theft. They were paid for a service and did not provide it. In the second scenario, one has to question the skill of the authenticator. All the items previously passed and now they all fail for 10-12 reasons. How did they miss all 10 things before?
Considering the price they charge for their services, I guess I expect more.


Also in Karl's example, the shaved t206 would have some residual value, but then again so would the original t206, Type 1 photo, baseball program, or vintage baseball that has a fake autograph on it. The only place this would not apply would be the cut signature, where the paper would have no intrinsic value.

Mark Velarde

[PhilNap]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Pscolgraphs,
With all due respect to you, I disagree.
What people need to do is their homework. If someone wants to collect something it is imperative that they 1)study what they are collecting, 2) create a network of trustworthy dealers and fellow collectors whom they can rely for guidance and assistance, and 3) understand that the only "guarantee" that means anything at all is the one the seller gives the buyer that they can return an item if they find it's not good.

Mark, what you say is great in theory. Unfortunately while many of us here have reached that stage as collector's I am guessing that the majority of the autograph buying public has not (and never will). So when it's time to sell, without that trusted third party authentication, your buying audience will be greatly diminished thereby reducing demand and, in turn, reducing value.

[Lordstan]

Phil,
I agree, that the "general" public are the ones who need third party certs the most, but with a few caveats.

First, I don't think the "general" autograph buying public is going to be going after the majority of the high end autographed items that collectors have on this board. Having any of the authenticators' certs isn't going to make the general public pay $5k for a cut sig of Gehrig or $60K or more for David's 27 Yanks ball. Besides the little problem of actually having the available money to spend, I think it takes a special type of person to spend that type of money on a piece of sports memorabilia, card, or autograph. I just don't see the average wife saying go ahead spend 20K on a signed ball, we don't need to use it for a whole host of things around the house. If you do have that loose change, you're make up a very tiny part of the "general" autograph buying public.

Plus, I also point out guys like Simon, Keating, Cocoran, Stinson, etc, who buy and sell all the time without any third party certs. These guys rely on their reputation that they will stand behind every auto they sell.

Second, I really am concerned with the seeming lack of youth in the BB Card/Sports memorabilia market. I wonder if in 20-30yrs if there will be people like us around wanting to spend they type of money that is spent now. Will a cert mean as much, if anything, if the marketplace contains far fewer people? I know people have been worrying about this forever, but as stuff gets more and more expensive, I think it does block entry into the marketplace of more people.

For me, when the time comes to sell all my stuff, it'll probably go to an auction house that can do whatever it wants, authentication wise, and then send me a check.

Best,
Mark

[Ringking]

This was done with PSA a while back also, and that can be seen on behindthegavel.com

NOW, psa uses their dalb of "DNA" to put on a item that they fail, so if they fail a item and it's sent back, it will have the stuff on the item, so that's why you see this going on with JSA a lot as he does not put anything on a item if he fails it.

I know that people have called him for quotes on items and the first thing they ask is "where did it come from" if you say you have a letter from CLM, they will tell you, it's fake, get a refund if it's not too late.

They don't learn at all and keep doing stuff like this.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Ringking

This was done with PSA a while back also, and that can be seen on behindthegavel.com

NOW, psa uses their dalb of "DNA" to put on a item that they fail, so if they fail a item and it's sent back, it will have the stuff on the item, so that's why you see this going on with JSA a lot as he does not put anything on a item if he fails it.

I know that people have called him for quotes on items and the first thing they ask is "where did it come from" if you say you have a letter from CLM, they will tell you, it's fake, get a refund if it's not too late.

They don't learn at all and keep doing stuff like this.

If your item has a CLM letter then it IS fake...unless of course you sent him a legit item just so you could try and trick JSA or PSA/DNA...but people don't send legit items to Christopher Morales...they send their legit items to legit authenticators. They send fake items to Morales so they can sell it to uneducated collectors.

[sports-rings]

Dan I agree with what you are saying, but shouldn't JSA and PSA be more open minded?

I mean, it is possible someone out there finds an autograph and sends it to Morales and then later on realizes he is unworthy and his COA is worthless.

I realize this would be a very rare situation but if someone is paying JSA and PSA good money they deserve an unbiased analysis of their item.

Not sure if you saw the story about the judge that threw out the testimony of Morales in a lawsuit. I doubt the folks at JSA or PSA would have been able to do much better in proving to the judge, that they are qualified to render opinions on autographs. At least JSA and PSA try to do the right work, and do the right certification, but when it comes down to it, they may not have the credentials or scientific education of a real hand writting expert.

[Ringking]

Originally Posted by sports-rings

Dan I agree with what you are saying, but shouldn't JSA and PSA be more open minded?

I mean, it is possible someone out there finds an autograph and sends it to Morales and then later on realizes he is unworthy and his COA is worthless.

I realize this would be a very rare situation but if someone is paying JSA and PSA good money they deserve an unbiased analysis of their item.

Not sure if you saw the story about the judge that threw out the testimony of Morales in a lawsuit. I doubt the folks at JSA or PSA would have been able to do much better in proving to the judge, that they are qualified to render opinions on autographs. At least JSA and PSA try to do the right work, and do the right certification, but when it comes down to it, they may not have the credentials or scientific education of a real hand writting expert.

PSA has had their letters thrown out of court too, fighttoys.com took them to court, and PSA lost. Their opinion means NOTHING to a court of law.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Ringking

PSA has had their letters thrown out of court too, fighttoys.com took them to court, and PSA lost. Their opinion means NOTHING to a court of law.

RingKing- You need to read the rules AND put your full name in your posts, per the rules. Same rules for everyone. If you don't understand something please PM me, email me or post it here, and I/we will explain. Nothing personal...just the rules. Thanks for your compliance.

[sports-rings]

Hi Cori,

it's been a long time since we spoke! Glad you are here - I think I was the only ring-collecter here before you showed up!