Shoeless Joe Jax DIVERSION, why isn't he in any 1911-1917 major T or E-card sets ?

[tedzan]

OK, you naysayers, if there is no hint of prejudice against Cobb at the Rochester plant, then I want to know WHY
his T205 and T206 cards were not inserted in cigarette packs produced at this Factory #649 plant ?

When, as we know, the following regarding T206 cards of Cobb......

Green Portrait..........8 different backs
Bat on Shoulder.......8 different backs
Bat off Shoulder.....16 different backs
Red Portrait...........22 different backs......ALC's "signature picture"

Furthermore, every major T206 star in the 150 series is found with the Brown HINDU back, and most major stars
in the 460 series are found with Red HINDU backs.

Perhaps, you do not find this strange, but I find this to be very, very strange. So, all I am simply asking.....does
anyone here have an explanation why none of the four T206 Cobb's, or the T205 Cobb were printed with HINDU
backs ?


TED Z

[ctownboy]

Ted,

I am not sure about the timing but maybe it was because Cobb was going to have his own smoking tobacco (Ty Cobb with Ty Cobb back) and instead of cannibalizing sales they decided to NOT print anymore cards of him for the T206 set and just do the Cobb back cards. Then, when that for some reason failed, it was too late to do factory 649 cards.

David

[tedzan]

Your thought is interesting in that would only apply to the Red Portrait Cobb. The Ty Cobb back Cobb was printed
and issued in the Spring of 1910. American Litho. (ALC) used the Red portrait picture, since it was being printed at
that same time. But, between the Spring and Winter of 1910, ALC printed the Red portrait Cobb with many tobacco
advertising backs. However, for whatever reasons, ALC did not print this Cobb with the Red HINDU back. I conclude
that the Rochester plant (Factory #649) did not want Cobb on their advertising premiums.

The Bat Off Shoulder Cobb exists with the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 back and the UZIT back; therefore, it will not be
found with a Red HINDU back (because this HINDU back is mutually exclusive with the AB 460 and UZIT backs).

The Green portrait and the Bat On Shoulder versions of Cobb were printed in 1909, and for whatever reasons, were
not printed with the Brown HINDU backs.


Thanks for your interesting post.

TED Z

[gabrinus]

As an Arkansas native I would strongly disagree that the Cotton and Delta areas of Arkansas would not have been considered Deep South in 1910. Little Rock as well. More than other "Southern" states. Coal Hill would definitely not have, however. Which might explain why Boss Schmdit beat up Ty Cobb for assaulting a black groundskeeper and his wife. The coal areas of Arkansas produced a lot of good boxers...as Cobb found out.

[tedzan]

I have always considered Arkansas as part of the "deep South". But, the accepted "book" definition only includes Alabama,
Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, and South Carolina.

Thanx for the Boss Schmidt/Cobb story.


TED Z

[tbob]

Ted, Gabrinus beat me to the punch. There is a world of difference between Western and more specifically Northwestern and Eastern and Southern Arkansas. The Northwest part of the State is more akin to Missouri which it borders and Western Arkansas is similar to Eastern Oklahoma. This might explain that why, like Kentucky, there were pockets of Unionist sympathy in the State during the War. Eastern and Southern Arkansas border on Missisippi and Louisiana and are absolutely Deep South. Despite this fact, Arkansans absolutely consider themselves Southerners and the State was a member of the Confederacy in the Second War of Independence from 1861-1865.

[slidekellyslide]

Interesting thread...and I think Tim nailed it when he said it was simply a matter of timing. Southerners made up a small percentage of Major League baseball in 1909-11 and as such made up a small percentage of the Major Leaguers shown on T206 cards. To think that an American tobacco company interested in selling lots of cigarettes would snub a southern born superstar because of Southern prejudice just doesn't make sense at all. If that were so then why not snub the greatest Southern born superstar of them all in Cobb?? I think it's even more laughable to state that they would snub Alexander because of his drinking and epilepsy. How the ATC would even know about his epilepsy when it was never written about back then I don't know...and his drinking was certainly never a big problem in his younger days and probably overblown in the latter part of his career....There are some legendary drunks in the T206 set...highly doubtful the execs or employees of the ATC were teetotalers.

I think that the simple explanation is almost always the correct one when dealing with speculation.

[tedzan]

Please be more specific regarding your......
"To think that an American tobacco company interested in selling lots of cigarettes would snub a southern born
superstar because of Southern prejudice just doesn't make sense at all."

Are you referring to Cobb or Jackson ?


TED Z

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Please be more specific regarding your......
"To think that an American tobacco company interested in selling lots of cigarettes would snub a southern born
superstar because of Southern prejudice just doesn't make sense at all."

Are you referring to Cobb or Jackson ?


TED Z

Ted, I'm referring to Jackson...your theory is that he was snubbed because of Southern prejudice. I don't buy that at all when you consider they included Cobb in the set and many other southerners. Heck, they included players from the Southern League for their Southern brands. What evidence do you have that anyone at the ATC had a Southern prejudice?

[tedzan]

Do you know how many of the near 400 different players in the T206 set are from the so-called deep South ?

There are a mere 16, that represents only 4 %.

And, the questions I have regarding Cobb are limited to the HINDU backs which there are NONE !

Look, I'm not making this up....the predjudice in that era towards ballplayers from the deep South is well documented.


TED Z

[slidekellyslide]

What is the total percentage of major leaguers from the Deep South in 1909-11? I'll bet it's close to 4%.

Southern born players even with major league talent were more likely to stay in the South and play in Southern leagues...the same can be said for West Coast players staying in the PCL and NWL...sure there were some who went for the bigger money of the Major Leagues, but people were more inclined to stay close to home in the early 20th century.

I'll ask again since this is your theory...what evidence do you have that the ATC had a Southern prejudice?

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Do you know how many of the near 400 different players in the T206 set are from the so-called deep South ?

There are a mere 16, that represents only 4 %.

TED Z

That's a misuse of statistics as I tried to point out yesterday.

Given the two additional players that we learned were also born in Georgia the total number of T206 players from that state are 7.

Using Ted's statistical analysis to determine bias the ATC hated New Jersey who also had 7 players in the T206 set. Neighboring Pennsylvania and New York had over 100 between them!! Why the bias against New Jersey?

"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."

[martyogelvie]

I like your theory Ted. No doubt their were prejudices that existed both ways. there were just as many Southerners who distrusted Northerners and its possible that Jackson didn't want to sign another contract with any more of those damn Yankees.

[tedzan]

You guys have misconstrued and twisted the entire gist of this thread. I know that you wont go back and
start reading it from post #1. Therefore, I'll reprise the two salient features of this thread......

(1) My original contention is......I find it quite mystifying that Joe Jax was not portrayed in any major T or E
sets during his glory years (1911-1920). American Lithograph (ALC) had his image in their 1910 OLD MILL set.
American Caramel (ACC) depicted him in their 1908 E90 set. Both these major BB card producers never again
included him in their subsequent sets.
NOTE..the 1915 E106 and the 1916 T216 issues (Kotton, MINO & Virginia Extra) are all derived from the E90
set images; therefore, it begs the question....WHY ISN"T JOE JAX IN THESE SETS ?

It is as basic as that. I did not accuse ATC of being predjudiced towards ballplayers from the "deep South".
However, it was quite strange that very few are in the T206 set. That leads us to the next mystery......

(2) The four T206 Ty Cobb cards are represented by most of their respective series tobacco advertisements.
But, none of them exist with the HINDU backs.
Furthermore, the T205 Ty Cobb was printed with 6 tobacco backs, but not the HINDU back. Perhaps, these
facts don't excite your curiosity....but, they certainly do mine. Therefore, I suggested that the Rochester, NY
factory (#649) that produced the HINDU brand for whatever reason did NOT want Cobb inserted in their cigar-
ette packs.

This is what it is. And, I simply put all this out there to encourage some meaningful discussion on these 2 topics.
Instead, I've had to put up with the usual "gotcha" game from a bunch of uninformed naysayers.

Look, the predjudice towards rookie players from the "boonies" of South Carolina (Joe Jax) or Georgia (Cobb) by
the team owners, their teammates, and the sports media of that era (circa 1900-1919) is well documented. For
example, take Connie Mack, he only scouted Colleges for his recruits, as he didn't think the coaching in the Minor
Leagues was as good as the College coaching.

Hey look guys, it wasn't just the South that was still fighting the Civil War.....it was also many in the North that
were still very bitter over the War and Southerners.

Sorry, on this lengthy reprise, but I'm at the point where I feel that it's futile to try and present some thought-
provoking topics on this forum....anymore.



TED Z

[Abravefan11]

ATC had the rights and images to print hundreds if not thousands of players BUT and this is a HUGE but that I can't seem to get you to agree with....

They did not create the 6 images needed to print the Jax image in lithograph form.

They only did this for the T206 set, and reused those same images for later sets without creating any new images.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Tim, you uninformed naysayer, stop playing gotcha.

Seriously, I thought this was a good discussion and some interesting points were raised, I am not sure why Ted is upset. EDIT And it still seems to me relevant to ask why Alex is not in any of these sets either, if the hypothesis is that Jax was snubbed due to anti Southern bias. The "not in T206" theory seems a more unifying explanation, although I am the first to admit i am uninformed.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Tim, you uninformed naysayer, stop playing gotcha.

Thanks Peter, that made me laugh.

One thing I hope is clear is that I'm not angry or upset with anyone. I just hope together we can uncover more of the mysteries through good research and discussion and in the end my point of view doesn't have to win out for us to do that.

[botn]

Just found it! Item 43b under Article 29, (section relating to Conduct) of the Rules and Regulations which governs Net 54, does state that all users must agree with any thought put forward by Ted even if the idea is considered reaching. Had I not seen it with my own eyes I would not have believed it.

Yeah I thought Tim, as well as you Peter, made some valid points and raised valid questions. That is the purpose of the board right--to share ideas and thoughts. Or are we all supposed to be of one mind?

[teetwoohsix]

Ted, I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around the Cobb/Hindu question you've presented. If I understand correctly, your theory leans toward Factory 649 (producers of Hindu brand) being prejudiced against Cobb for being from the South, correct? If this is what you are suggesting, it makes no sense to me.

Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards Vol.3-Lew Lipset (I know I quote out of this book alot, because I read it alot and it is my favorite book):

"In August of 1909, a New Orleans daily ran an ad for "Hindu Cigarettes".The ad showed a drawing of a package of Hindu cigarettes with the top of two cards visible in the top of the package.Both cards,Dooin and Waddell,were major leaguers from the 150 series.The observation here was that it tied Hindu closely to the 150 series.

Less than a month later,the same New Orleans newspaper ran another ad for "Hindu".This time the ad said there were "2 Pictures of Southern League Players in Every Box".The ad showed illustrations of Southern Leaguers,Carey and Bernhard,and if these cards were ready in September of 1909 it certainly removes 1910 as the date for the 350 series.It's possible that only the Southern Series was available at this time,and only with the difficult Hindu Brand."

So,to me,it sounds like Hindu advertised in a New Orleans paper promoting players that were from the South........why would they be prejudiced towards Cobb? I don't get it.

Please feel free to straighten me out on this,if I'm not following correctly.

Thanks,Clayton

[Leon]

Originally Posted by botn

Just found it! Item 43b under Article 29, (section relating to Conduct) of the Rules and Regulations which governs Net 54, does state that all users must agree with any thought put forward by Ted even if the idea is considered reaching. Had I not seen it with my own eyes I would not have believed it.

Now that was funny. Personally, I thought this was a pretty good thread though it's not one of my high interest points in collecting. Since it's not at the peak of my interest there will be a rule 43c put forth, stating that no topic can be discussed unless it interests the other moderators or me .

[tedzan]

Clayton

Regarding the Cobb/HINDU mystery in both the T206 and T205 issues, I don't know if the people at the Rochester, NY
plant were prejudiced towards Ty Cobb for being from the South. But, what is factual is....as popular a figure as Cobb
was in the 1909-1911 era.....he is not found with HINDU advertising backs in either of these two popular BB card sets.
So, I'm asking you....don't you find that very puzzling ?
Especially, since Cobb was printed advertising every tobacco brand in the ATC system in that era. Particularly, the Red
Cobb, which is found with 22 different backs. Including LENOX, SWEET CAP, TOLSTOI (they are Factory #30, New York
City). But, it's no mystery, the people up in upstate New York did not want Cobb inserted in their cigarette packs.

If you are at all interested in checking out the HINDU factory, here is the link to my thread about it......
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...imball+factory


Now, regarding your comments about the HINDU ads. in the Fall of 1909....here's another one with the cards of Jordan,
Breitenstein, and Hickman. Now, this comment of yours is incorrect........"So,to me,it sounds like Hindu advertised in a
New Orleans paper promoting players that were from the South"

ATC was promoting their cigarettes in the South with these premiums that included ballplayers that PLAYED on Southern
teams. The majority of the 48 subjects in the SL series were, actually from Northern and Midwest cities.

And, to clarify your......"and if these cards were ready in September of 1909 it certainly removes 1910 as the date for the
350 series.It's possible that only the Southern Series was available at this time,and only with the difficult Hindu Brand."

Of the 48 cards in the SL series, 34 of them were available in the Fall of 1909. Subsequently, in the Spring of 1910, the
other 14 SL cards were printed with OLD MILL and PIEDMONT 350 backs. Scot Reader refers to this latter group of 14 SL's
as the "350-only" Southern Leaguers.







I hope this answers or clarifies some of the questions you asked. If not we'll try once more.


TED Z

[teetwoohsix]

Ted-

Thanks for explaining this, I do understand now. I was combining players that were from the South with players who played on Southern teams, and now I am clear on what was confusing me.Thank you for straightening me out on that, I do appreciate it.

I also really enjoyed going back through that thread with the link to the Kimball Factory #649.......what a wonderful history lesson!!!


Thanks again, Clayton

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

ATC was promoting their cigarettes in the South with these premiums that included ballplayers that PLAYED on Southern teams.

TED Z

ATC also managed to get a few "deep south" players in the ads as well. This one includes at least one player from Georigia, Alabama, and South Carolina.

The ad also features the rare Breitenstein reverse negative.

[tedzan]

Check out our HINDU ads....I'd say that mine has the mysterious reverse pix of Breitenstein.






TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Both ads show his card in the pack with the image reversed. The ad I posted also shows his card with the proper orientation.

Another interesting artistic decision.