I'm almost POSITIVE this card features Shoeless Joe...

[brett]

Originally Posted by Leon

Not that it matters a lot but put me in the camp of "it's probably him but not ready to call it definitive". I do think it's him from all evidence shown but I am just not ready to call it Jackson yet. Personally, I think it needs to be definitive for me to concede it being him.

Leon, it's as definitive as it's going to get brother. Glad I was able to contribute something worthy to your board. Sorry to everybody else for coming accross like an asshole lately, but I knew I was right when I first posted this. Thanks to the help of other people on here it's now as evident as evident can be. If somebody is still saying "no" right now they're either blind, stubborn, or in denial (possibly all of the above) in which case their credibility has just gone right down the crapper.

[carrigansghost]

Welcome to the board and I look forward to your next thought provoking thread.

Rawn

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I'd still rather have a T200 Cleveland to have a Jackson card.

I would rather have the T200 as well.

Originally Posted by brett

If somebody is still saying "no" right now they're either blind, stubborn, or in denial (possibly all of the above) in which case their credibility has just gone right down the crapper.

I don't think anyone is saying "no", but not everyone is saying 100% "yes". With that said, I do think it is probably him and thanks for a great thread.

[brett]

Originally Posted by Robextend

Great thread. If I was collecting Joe Jackson items, and we knew for sure it was him, I would certainly pay a nice premium. However without being 100% certain, which we aren't, I can't see that happening.

Rob

It's 100% unless people haven't read this entire thread or are just out of touch with reality. Remember, there's still a large percentage of society who deny that dinosaurs existed or that the Holocaust happened.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1
Assume that sllding into 3rd base is a serious felony, punishible by a lengthy prison sentence, perhaps even death. The witnesses to the event in question have all died or mysteriously vanished. All we have is the image from the card.

JJ is arrested. Should he be convicted based on that image?

Originally Posted by brett

Based on all the insurmountable evidence that's come out in the past couple days, HELL YES!

The question was put in terms of the card only for a reason. Based on the card plus the Tim/Paul photo newpaper photo analysis, JJ may be in trouble at least in civil court.

As to the newpaper photo, let me try to provide a possible explanation for the socks and shadows (if this has already been done, sorry but I didn't see it). This needs to be justified and it isn't artist overpaint:

From the card and the very small shadow on the back of Lord's right foot we can see that the sun is high above and somewhat to our right. The sock on his back leg is partly shadowed by his own body. In the newpaper photo, he has moved that left foot forward - more under his body - hence it is more shadowed.

As to the slider's high leg - the one we see with the wrap on the card - we do see the wrap a little bit in the newpaper photo - just to our left of Lord's right leg - a thin strip of white - then it goes black perhaps due to the shadow of Lord's body as he slides under him. The extreme black and white is what we get because this is a half-tone image.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by brett

BIG difference... in this card Joe Jackson isn't in the background, he's the centerpiece!

Brett - your off base here - the standard convention for cataloging T202s is based on the end panels and the title of the center panel. Consider the Lajoie I posted about above. He is even mentioned in the text on the back, but that card is not cataloged as Lajoie (cataloged, as are all T202s, by the title, this one is "A Great Batsman"), and is not part of any "Lajoie master set." It's just a T202 that has Lajoie in the center panel with another player; same here. In fact that one has much better credentials then this one for what you are suggesting - the back uses his name and the text on the back focuses on the batter (as opposed to the one in question which focuses on the 3B).

To suggest this card "features" Joe Jax assumes the manufactures intended him to be the centerpiece. Bob's verbiage is much more apt - he is a cameo on this card - the printers of this card wouldn't have cared if Joe Jax or any other player was being thrown out at 3rd.

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by brett

It's 100% unless people haven't read this entire thread or are just out of touch with reality. Remember, there's still a large percentage of society who deny that dinosaurs existed or that the Holocaust happened.

Comparing photo identification on a baseball card with the existence of dinosaurs or the Holocaust is a tad ridiculous.

[ChiefBenderForever]

I agree with all the comparisons to T200 prices, I think the intitial hype and excitement will bring 5X to the T202 and after the novelty wears off will drop to about 3x.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Brett, it was a great observation, and lots of people have contributed to a fascinating discussion and analysis. There was absolutely no need for your contentiousness though -- much better to be a consensus builder and treat people politely and with respect than to just dismiss them and mock them and taunt them. You continue to do yourself a disservice with that 'tude.

[brett]

Originally Posted by sayhey24

Two things are abundantly clear here:

It's Jackson (GREAT detective work).

The original poster is far from gracious.

Greg

Thanks Greg, but what should I be gracious about? I brought something huge to this board and instead of appreciation I got a bunch of pseudo-experts on high-horses doubting me and just trying to be contrarians. You admitted that you agree with me and you're smarter for it. I'm the type of person who will quickly apologize or admit whenever I'm wrong, but I usually won't take such a strong and arrogant stance unless I KNOW I'm right. This is one of those instances. Thanks for at least being one of the people on this board who have logic and common sense.

[barrysloate]

Thanks Rob. I was insulted by the Holocaust analogy too. Not appropriate.

[brett]

Originally Posted by carrigansghost

Welcome to the board and I look forward to your next thought provoking thread.

Rawn

Thanks buddy but I have nowhere to go but down from here.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Robextend

Comparing photo identification on a baseball card with the existence of dinosaurs or the Holocaust is a tad ridiculous.

Ya think?

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by brett

I'm the type of person who will quickly apologize or admit whenever I'm wrong, but I usually won't take such a strong and arrogant stance unless I KNOW I'm right.

You may well be right about the card.

You are 100% dead wrong about your attitude.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by brett

Thanks Greg, but what should I be gracious about? I brought something huge to this board and instead of appreciation I got a bunch of pseudo-experts on high-horses doubting me and just trying to be contrarians. You admitted that you agree with me and you're smarter for it. I'm the type of person who will quickly apologize or admit whenever I'm wrong, but I usually won't take such a strong and arrogant stance unless I KNOW I'm right. This is one of those instances. Thanks for at least being one of the people on this board who have logic and common sense.

Marshall Barkman the Fourth??

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by brett

Leon, it's as definitive as it's going to get brother. Glad I was able to contribute something worthy to your board. Sorry to everybody else for coming accross like an asshole lately, but I knew I was right when I first posted this. Thanks to the help of other people on here it's now as evident as evident can be. If somebody is still saying "no" right now they're either blind, stubborn, or in denial (possibly all of the above) in which case their credibility has just gone right down the crapper.

Brett,

I'm not sure why as this thread has progessed you see the need to go to arrogant and condescending.

A significant number of board members have opined that in their view it very possibly might be Jackson, in fact likely is him, but there exists a reasonable possibility it is not. In fact, this view arguably reflects the stated consensus of this board. I hope that view is not a "no" by your way of looking of things, because if so I think it's a bit disrespectful to characterize so many board member as "blind, stubborn or in denial." In regard to your phrases "it's as definitive as it's going to get"/it's now as evident as evident can be", clearly it is not. I think most of us would feel that finding this same image in a newspaper archive with a period annotation entitled "Jackson out at third" would make the ID significantly more definitive.

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by brett

You admitted that you agree with me and you're smarter for it. I'm the type of person who will quickly apologize or admit whenever I'm wrong, but I usually won't take such a strong and arrogant stance unless I KNOW I'm right. This is one of those instances. Thanks for at least being one of the people on this board who have logic and common sense.

So everyone that agrees with you is smarter then they were a couple days ago? Also why does being right = having to be arrogant about it?

You contributed to the board with a great thread; some people think you are 100% right, others think you are strongly on to something. Why can't you leave it at that? Each post you have recently made has been more absurd then the last.

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Thanks Rob. I was insulted by the Holocaust analogy too. Not appropriate.

No prob. I don't understand why that would have to be brought up in a vintage card forum to prove a point.

[carrigansghost]

Call the teacher over, the kids are fighting at recess again. This is one of the best posts of the, as yet, short year.

Rawn

[barrysloate]

I think this thread has gone about as far as it can, and at this point it is beginning to regress. Hopefully this discussion will end soon. What more can any of us say?

[brett]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Thanks Rob. I was insulted by the Holocaust analogy too. Not appropriate.

Relax, I'm more jewish than matzo ball soup. I used an extreme example to show that it's not surprising that people would be in denial about something as trivial as this when there are still brain-dead morons out there who refuse to acknowledge something as major as the two examples I used.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I think this thread has gone about as far as it can, and at this point it is beginning to regress. Hopefully this discussion will end soon. What more can any of us?

Well, he hasn't threatened to sue himself... yet.


We still have that to look forward to!


(Brett, that's not a shot at you, but is poking fun at another board member who did exactly that.)

[Peter_Spaeth]

At least Barkman's assholishness was tinged with humor. This guy just appears to be an asshole, period.

[sportscardtheory]

That anyone can still say there is doubt is astonishing. The Joe Jackson-specific wrinkle on the left side of his face and the completely identical pant-line fold on Lord in the newspaper photo make this a done deal, and that's not even bringing up all the circumstantial evidence. Anyone who still isn't certain this is Jackson is in some sort of denial.

[Jim VB]

Can we require all "newer" board members to state their occupation and current geographic location?

We can't keep blaming everything on New York lawyers, can we? And Land Surveyors from Hawaii just doesn't sound mean enough!

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by brett

Remember, there's still a large percentage of society who deny that dinosaurs existed or that the Holocaust happened.

In Iran perhaps.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by calvindog

In Iran perhaps.

Is that where Mel Gibson's father lives.

[4815162342]

Sort all the threads by "Views" and this thread is #7!

Sort by "Replies" and it's #5!

[barrysloate]

The analysis of the T202 has ended. The remainder of this thread is devoted to personal attacks.

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by JohnnyHarmonica

I just asked you a question, and apologize if that was petty. I wish I was in high school !

sorry if I came across as harsh Johnny. I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread and all the evidence that has been discovered to support both sides fo the issue. I apologize to you if my tone seemed out of sorts.
This has been more interesting than the Ty Cobb back discussions in my opinion. I think if anything, this thread will get collectors to take a closer look at all their cards from now on. I have several T202s and to be honest, I look at the side panels more than the pictures in the middle most of the time.

[rhettyeakley]

Interesting thread, it is likely Joe after all but I retain the right to change my opinion if more evidence is found.

That being said, what people like Brett and Sportscardtheory (I have no idea who that is) have to understand is that while this one ended up being likely correct (I'm still not 100% convinced) for every one that is correctly id'ed there are 20-30 that are totally bogus. You guys were convinced that it was Joe prior to any of the evidence Greg put forth (which is the ONLY thing in my mind that leads me to believe it might me him) so your bias was obvious from the start. Prior to the newspaper photo evrything that had been put forth as "evidence" was essentially opinion based on a blurry image that had just as good of a chance as being Terry Turner or Joe Birmingham (as opposed to Jackson).

When one is truly impartial they have to be convinced by the evidence, not the other way around--this is why Mark is so valuable to this board and the hobby. I think he is right on in his stance, he never once said "that ISN'T Joe Jackson" he was simply stating that he didn't feel comfortable saying it "was 100% Joe Jackson" because there is that small chance that it isn't (which still exists). Photo ID is an absolute...it's either him or it's not, if you say it's "likely" him then that just isn't enough for some people (got it!).

The fact that both of you have been so beligerent about the whole thing really leaves a sour taste in the mouth (at least to me). We got it 350 posts ago that you were convinced it was him (even before the newspaper photo Greg found was found) but to ridicule or be "arrogant" about this kind of stuff is petty and childish. I have been doubted by many in the past about things in this hobby that turned out to be right, but a mature person doesn't feel the need to do the whole "I told you so" thing!

The way Mark approaches photo id is the "standard of care" (to use a medical term). Jumping to conclusions about an id from a photo is done all the time and 99% are wrong. Take your praise as having possibly added a card to the JoeJax master checklist like an adult, no need for anymore jabs, shots or holocaust references (see Godwin's Law).

-Rhett

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Interesting thread, it is likely Joe after all but I retain the right to change my opinion if more evidence is found.

That being said, what people like Brett and Sportscardtheory (I have no idea who that is) have to understand is that while this one ended up being likely correct (I'm still not 100% convinced) for every one that is correctly id'ed there are 20-30 that are totally bogus. You guys were convinced that it was Joe prior to any of the evidence Greg put forth (which is the ONLY thing in my mind that leads me to believe it might me him) so your bias was obvious from the start. Prior to the newspaper photo evrything that had been put forth as "evidence" was essentially opinion based on a blurry image that had just as good of a chance as being Terry Turner or Joe Birmingham (as opposed to Jackson).

When one is truly impartial they have to be convinced by the evidence, not the other way around--this is why Mark is so valuable to this board and the hobby. I think he is right on in his stance, he never once said "that ISN'T Joe Jackson" he was simply stating that he didn't feel comfortable saying it "was 100% Joe Jackson" because there is that small chance that it isn't (which still exists). Photo ID is an absolute...it's either him or it's not, if you say it's "likely" him then that just isn't enough for some people (got it!).

The fact that both of you have been so beligerent about the whole thing really leaves a sour taste in the mouth (at least to me). We got it 350 posts ago that you were convinced it was him (even before the newspaper photo Greg found was found) but to ridicule or be "arrogant" about this kind of stuff is petty and childish. I have been doubted by many in the past about things in this hobby that turned out to be right, but a mature person doesn't feel the need to do the whole "I told you so" thing!

The way Mark approaches photo id is the "standard of care" (to use a medical term). Jumping to conclusions about an id from a photo is done all the time and 99% are wrong. Take your praise as having possibly added a card to the JoeJax master checklist like an adult, no need for anymore jabs, shots or holocaust references (see Godwin's Law).

-Rhett

Why are you calling me belligerent when I haven't been? And why are you saying I had my mind made up from the beginning when I didn't?

[Anthony S.]

Well put, Rhett.

[ChiefBenderForever]

Originally Posted by T206DK

sorry if I came across as harsh Johnny. I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread and all the evidence that has been discovered to support both sides fo the issue. I apologize to you if my tone seemed out of sorts.
This has been more interesting than the Ty Cobb back discussions in my opinion. I think if anything, this thread will get collectors to take a closer look at all their cards from now on. I have several T202s and to be honest, I look at the side panels more than the pictures in the middle most of the time.

No worries Dave, I'm still laughing about the ufo, bigfoot, and Jack the Ripper comments that was pretty funny. I think this whole observation has been amazing but the excitement is already wearing off a little, but definately a great find in a set seldomly talked about.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Rhett takes over the lead for best post of the thread.

[Robextend]

Great post Rhett.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by calvindog

In Iran perhaps.

Or Alabama...

Great Post, Rhett. I have learned in writing about the hobby to never be surprised when a long-accepted piece of hobby orthodoxy is overturned with new evidence or when a new discovery pops up--that's what makes it fun...

[sportscardtheory]

Yeah, great job making stuff up, Rhett. POST OF THE YEAR!!! I'm surprised he could still type on his computer while riding his high-horse.

[rhettyeakley]

"That anyone can still say there is doubt is astonishing.

This has absolutely nothing to do with law. Majority rules in these situations.

I'm sorry that you can't understand it, it's about burden of proof. Everyone has done an exceptional job proving that it is Jackson, while some people are wasting everyone's time saying that they...

The thing I don't like about this, is that "Mark" isn't saying anything at all. He's saying he doesn't know, which is the same thing as saying nothing. The only evidence he can possibly use to...

That's a cop-out. It HAS to be someone, and if you say it's not Joe Jackson, then who is it? IT HAS TO BE SOMEONE.

Nope. It's your lack of comprehension that sucks. I was only asking who you think the player is, and apparently you don't have an answer. Many have shown that it certainly could be him, (and the...

Why are you so angry? lol Light some candles...take a bubble bath...listen to whale songs.

Him carrying-on about UFOs and chiding everyone simply because they are curious is SOOO substantive."



All statements by you in this thread and essentially a case-study in belligerency (is that a word?)

[brett]

Originally Posted by Robextend

Comparing photo identification on a baseball card with the existence of dinosaurs or the Holocaust is a tad ridiculous.

To me, the fact that anybody would still deny that this is Joe Jackson is a tad ridiculous.

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by brett

To me, the fact that anybody would still deny that this is Joe Jackson is a tad ridiculous.

Please answer this:

Anyone that is not 100% sure that it is Jackson is absolutely wrong and as you put in an earlier post "brain-dead"?

[martyogelvie]

Good Stuff RHETT!

note to self;

never pizz off Rhett.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Or Alabama...

Hell, I'm pretty sure it's in the Texas history books that way.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

"That anyone can still say there is doubt is astonishing.

This has absolutely nothing to do with law. Majority rules in these situations.

I'm sorry that you can't understand it, it's about burden of proof. Everyone has done an exceptional job proving that it is Jackson, while some people are wasting everyone's time saying that they...

The thing I don't like about this, is that "Mark" isn't saying anything at all. He's saying he doesn't know, which is the same thing as saying nothing. The only evidence he can possibly use to...

That's a cop-out. It HAS to be someone, and if you say it's not Joe Jackson, then who is it? IT HAS TO BE SOMEONE.

Nope. It's your lack of comprehension that sucks. I was only asking who you think the player is, and apparently you don't have an answer. Many have shown that it certainly could be him, (and the...

Why are you so angry? lol Light some candles...take a bubble bath...listen to whale songs.

Him carrying-on about UFOs and chiding everyone simply because they are curious is SOOO substantive."



All statements by you in this thread and essentially a case-study in belligerency (is that a word?)

It's very easy to quote me without using context. You didn't even complete my sentences in a pathetic attempt to make them seem worse than they are. POST OF THE YEAR! lol How is the air up there???

[brett]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Brett, it was a great observation, and lots of people have contributed to a fascinating discussion and analysis. There was absolutely no need for your contentiousness though -- much better to be a consensus builder and treat people politely and with respect than to just dismiss them and mock them and taunt them. You continue to do yourself a disservice with that 'tude.

The 'tude has been brought on from people doubting me when I'm telling them what I KNOW. I agree with your overall opinion though. If I'm still welcome on this board when this thread is over I think you'll see a kinder, gentler, more playful version of me. It's just that I'm very passionate about this issue now and I don't like people confusing others just because they think they're smarter than anybody else (which they've now proven that they're definitely not).

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

"That anyone can still say there is doubt is astonishing.

This has absolutely nothing to do with law. Majority rules in these situations.

I'm sorry that you can't understand it, it's about burden of proof. Everyone has done an exceptional job proving that it is Jackson, while some people are wasting everyone's time saying that they...

The thing I don't like about this, is that "Mark" isn't saying anything at all. He's saying he doesn't know, which is the same thing as saying nothing. The only evidence he can possibly use to...

That's a cop-out. It HAS to be someone, and if you say it's not Joe Jackson, then who is it? IT HAS TO BE SOMEONE.

Nope. It's your lack of comprehension that sucks. I was only asking who you think the player is, and apparently you don't have an answer. Many have shown that it certainly could be him, (and the...

Why are you so angry? lol Light some candles...take a bubble bath...listen to whale songs.

Him carrying-on about UFOs and chiding everyone simply because they are curious is SOOO substantive."



All statements by you in this thread and essentially a case-study in belligerency (is that a word?)

I completely stand behind every single one of these. They weren't belligerent and most were in response to posters who WERE being belligerent. Nice try, though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Come on Brett, you can't just walk into a room of strangers, say you KNOW something, and then get pissed off if they doubt you or hold you to proof -- which by the way you never provided; by far the best evidence was provided by Greg. Stick around, but chill.

[Robextend]

I know it's probably not the case, but it sounds like Brett is ready to list 50 of these T202 cards on EBAY. And the fact that some people don't feel comfortable saying that it is definitively Joe Jackson is pissing him off.

As others have said, no one is saying it isn't him, they are just hesitant to say 100% that it is. There is a big difference which you are failing to see.

[brett]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Brett,

I'm not sure why as this thread has progessed you see the need to go to arrogant and condescending.

I think most of us would feel that finding this same image in a newspaper archive with a period annotation entitled "Jackson out at third" would make the ID significantly more definitive.

Have you not been following this post? The article you're suggesting is right here... http://www.botn.com/images/CPD050611.jpg

That's why this ID is more than definitive.

[martyogelvie]

Brett... nice find and I am in your camp; but
You can't convince everybody. Why can't that be good enough.

When some members continued to hold out, instead of saying to each his own, you starting throwing barbs at them... not cool!

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by brett

I think you'll see a kinder, gentler, more playful version of me. It's just that I'm very passionate ....

This sounds like it belongs in Playboy's Playmate Data Sheet.