Thoughts on Buying from Legendary

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Not really. My point is that I personally think the vast majority of auction houses have committed fraudulent/shady activities at some point. I mean seriously Joe, is there a single one that you have not heard a dirty story about (not counting B&L, but they are relatively new, give them a little time )? Therefore, if I refuse to do business with Legendary, I would then have to refuse to do business with all of them which basically means giving up the hobby.

The only way to obtain cards is through auction houses? Private transactions, BST, trades, the National and many other means don't exist any more? You should either submit to shill bidding or give up the hobby? By the way, I can think of an auction house other than B&L that has not been embroiled in a scandal.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

By the way, I can think of an auction house other than B&L that has not been embroiled in a scandal.

ready when you are...

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Bicem

ready when you are...

Jeff,

With the auction house I work for I've never witnessed any shilling, alterations or knowing misrepresentation of any item. We take pride in what we do. We are hopeful that hobbyists will take stock in us and have confidence that they are taking part in an honest auction. Those who know me personally know I wouldn't take part or stay silent on any questionable activities.

[barrysloate]

Here's one way an unethical auction house operates:

Auction houses get to know the bidding habits of their best customers, and know that certain whales, particularly those who are working on top registry sets, will almost never stop bidding on a rare high grade card, say a "1 of 1." And they pretty much know that if they bump a bid on one of those cards their customer will certainly come back and bid again. These bidders, or marks, will never win any of these pieces unless a world's record price is achieved.

I know often the board is incredulous when they see a high grade vintage card selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars, and don't believe the transaction ever took place. And there is always a board member who seems to know who won it and therefore assumes the transaction was legitimate. So the problem is not whether the card sold, which it did, but how it got to that stratospheric level.

That is why so many of the whales leave the hobby rather abruptly. At some point they discover how they were treated and they drop out. And this has been going on for a very long time.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Here's one way an unethical auction house operates:

Auction houses get to know the bidding habits of their best customers, and know that certain whales, particularly those who are working on top registry sets, will almost never stop bidding on a rare high grade card, say a "1 of 1." And they pretty much know that if they bump a bid on one of those cards their customer will certainly come back and bid again. These bidders, or marks, will never win any of these pieces unless a world's record price is achieved.

Exactly Barry...is there any other reason to shill a 1978 Topps baseball set?

[vintagechris]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Jeff,

With the auction house I work for I've never witnessed any shilling, alterations or knowing misrepresentation of any item. We take pride in what we do. We are hopeful that hobbyists will take stock in us and have confidence that they are taking part in an honest auction. Those who know me personally know I wouldn't take part or stay silent on any questionable activities.

And this is exactly why Huggins and Scott is at the top of may favorites. I have never heard anything bad about them and honestly, I have never had one bad feeling that something might be wrong. I can't say that about most Auction Houses.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

The only way to obtain cards is through auction houses? Private transactions, BST, trades, the National and many other means don't exist any more? You should either submit to shill bidding or give up the hobby?

By the way, I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do. I'm just saying that for me personally, I would feel like a hypocrite if I told myself that I wouldn't allow myself to bid with Legendary b/c of their past fraud but go ahead and bid with the other guys who I also believe have committed past fraud.

Obviously, auction houses are not the only way to obtain cards, but they do seem to have about 90% of what I want to collect.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Bicem

By the way, I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do. I'm just saying that for me personally, I would feel like a hypocrite if I told myself that I wouldn't allow myself to bid with Legendary b/c of their past fraud

Um, watch your tenses there, boy. I'd hate for you to think that all is well going forward.

[Bicem]

sorry, ongoing fraud.

[bijoem]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

By the way, I can think of an auction house other than B&L that has not been embroiled in a scandal.

They are young yet..... give them some time.

[HRBAKER]

"Fact is, as a bidder, when you plug in your max....you need to expect that's what you going to pay and if it goes lower then that's your bonus."

Surely part of this equation should be the expectation on the part of the bidder of a legitimate "arms length" transaction.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

"Fact is, as a bidder, when you plug in your max....you need to expect that's what you going to pay and if it goes lower then that's your bonus."

Surely part of this equation should be the expectation on the part of the bidder of a legitimate "arms length" transaction.

Apparently not. This sort of mentality is what allows shill bidding to go on unfettered: "oh well, I paid what I thought the card was worth so it's all good." But it's not all good if the card could have been had for less than your max bid and for less than what you thought the card might be worth. This is why it is an auction and not a tag sale. Also, when a card is shilled to a level beyond what the card would have sold for minus the fraud, the next time that card comes up for auction either in that grade or a different one, a false precedent has been set. Even if no direct fraud occurs in the latter auction, the impact of the prior fraud is real.

And sadly, why am I saying this....again? How many more years do we need to hear the basic concepts of Fraud 101? This is pretty basic stuff, right?

[HRBAKER]

Jeff you and I are in agreement and that was the point of my post.

[Bicem]

what's the solution Jeff?

[HRBAKER]

The only solution on a local level is if you think you are getting hosed, don't get in the pool.

[barrysloate]

The solution is for law enforcement to go after these auction houses, and if they are convicted of fraud, to penalize them heavily.

As far as whether or not to bid, I don't have an answer. Certainly Jeff is correct that if you leave a ceiling bid and the lot gets to the limit due to shilling, it's not acceptable at all. You should only have to pay one increment above the last real bid. Period. And if one were to boycott all auction houses where even the possibility of fraud exists, then it's time to find a new hobby.

[Rob D.]

To follow up on Jeff's point, I wish I had a dollar for every time a member of this board posted something along the line of "I don't have to worry about shill bidding because I just plug in the max I'm willing to pay and forget about it."

[MikeS]

Well I always thought if you bid with your head and your budget in mind, you wouldn't overpay. Of course many will overbid because they cherish and want the item for their collection so they set a high personal expectation. I think most people still live in that "last 5 sec" rule of Ebay where u plug in a high spend and most of the time its concludes lower than your bid....in instances where you win. Most sites offer the 30min rule and this is where you have control of your own destiny. Plugging in a max bid with two weeks to go is the bidders fault if their intention is to get the item lower than what they bid. I understand most peoples gripe and true it's unethical, but I haven't seen an indictments so far. What blows my mind about "shill bids" is that in the end the buyer still got an authentic lot. I went to the CCorner after reading many of member posts, but this site still remains in business and completely makes the industry look bad with all those great autographs and Morales certs. People are still bidding on these and this is true fraud, but no one seems to care except poke fun. Think its time to drop the scapegoats and move on. If anything, bidders and collectors should come away from this to be weary, do your research and find the best house or site that serves your needs. If you don't like another site/house...then don't use them, but don't tell others what not to do unless you have a personal instance to share and focus on the good traits of the company you like.

[barrysloate]

People may make light of CC over on the memorabilia side but everybody wants them shut down. That they have been able to operate the way they do for so long and still be in business says a lot to me about law enforcement. I'm sure the feds know about what goes on over there, and yet what have they done about it? Nobody really understands how it has gone on for so long. Clearly, CC understands how the system works.