Card Improvment: Ethical? Yes or NO?

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Reginald Marsh

Actually Bretta you and Spaeth kinda remind me of that goofball O'Keefe at the Net54 dinner, rambling on and on about something that is old news.

Does any true card collector or dealer think that Dick is the only one who can do things to cards? I mean please we are talking about cardboard and paper here. Just like there are many folks that can restore a painting or old document there ar emany people who can restore cards.

My question is why start off a topic on the main board that is only going to create drama? Ohhhhhh..... that's right i forgot that was the intent....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....zzzzzzzzzzzz... ..

Great, you don't like the subject? Don't read it....and I certainly hope you weren't as rude at the Net54 dinner as you are in this forum.

[benjulmag]

Regretably if we're not there yet, we will be soon when many alterations will as a practical matter be undetectable. In such a world a slabbed 8 will be as likely to be an altered, say, 3 as a genuine 8. When the market recognizes this as being the state of affairs, IMO prices of high grade condition rarities that lack solid provenance (e.g., coming from an old-time collection such that the likelihood of alteration is negligible) will plummet.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Regretably if we're not there yet, we will be soon when many alterations will as a practical matter be undetectable. In such a world a slabbed 8 will be as likely to be an altered, say, 3 as a genuine 8. When the market recognizes this as being the state of affairs, IMO prices of high grade condition rarities that lack solid provenance (e.g., coming from an old-time collection such that the likelihood of alteration is negligible) will plummet.

Not sure we will get there. I think the majority of people are trusting and take the grades at face value.

[Reginald Marsh]

Barry......i do not see where anyone is advertising where you can buy a bottle of anything. I'm pretty sure that nothing is for sale in regards to a bottle of anything.

Bretta.....there is nothing rude about asking you why as a moderator do you start asking questions that will only create drama and controversy. Also note that Dick has been doing this for 16 years so it is no new discovery in regards to cards and there is actually a section on this website explaining how to soak a card yet that is not brought up or questioned and neither are the people who wrote it.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Reginald Marsh

Barry......i do not see where anyone is advertising where you can buy a bottle of anything. I'm pretty sure that nothing is for sale in regards to a bottle of anything.

Bretta.....there is nothing rude about asking you why as a moderator do you start asking questions that will only create drama and controversy. Also note that Dick has been doing this for 16 years so it is no new discovery in regards to cards and there is actually a section on this website explaining how to soak a card yet that is not brought up or questioned and neither are the people who wrote it.

1) referring to me by my last name and comparing me to a "goofball" I consider to be rude. This is not the first instance where I've found you to be rude.

2) for one who abhors the "Drama" I've noticed you always make sure you get a shot in in any thread that is "Dramatic".

3) just because I am a moderator does not mean I can not bring up controversial subjects.

Carry on.

[FrankWakefield]

I see nothing wrong with soaking a T206 to get paste and scrapbook off of the card.

And when I read this thread it makes me think there are folks out there who think their slabbed cards have never been soaked... And are afraid that folks might start soaking cards then sending them in for grading.

I'm glad I collect cards, and not slabs.

[Reginald Marsh]

Bretta i agree that you should have the right to bring up controversial subjects but if you are please bring up something new. Cards have been restored for the past 30 years and also note there is a huge difference in removing something from a card and adding something.

When a piece of artwork has dirt removed it is entirely different than when someone repairs the canvas or touches up paint loss.

I was only kidding when saying goofball but i forgot the sensitive level is ultra high here on this board. The only point i was trying to make is let's talk about something new instead of the same blah.....blah....blah....

Everyday it is either Mastro,legendary,Doug Forman.......and then Mastro,Legendary,card restoring......Doug forman.....and then....so you get my point.

[Cat]

Originally Posted by Reginald Marsh

Doug Forman

Gave me a chuckle.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Reginald Marsh

Bretta i agree that you should have the right to bring up controversial subjects but if you are please bring up something new. Cards have been restored for the past 30 years and also note there is a huge difference in removing something from a card and adding something.

When a piece of artwork has dirt removed it is entirely different than when someone repairs the canvas or touches up paint loss.

I was only kidding when saying goofball but i forgot the sensitive level is ultra high here on this board. The only point i was trying to make is let's talk about something new instead of the same blah.....blah....blah....

Everyday it is either Mastro,legendary,Doug Forman.......and then Mastro,Legendary,card restoring......Doug forman.....and then....so you get my point.

The only reason I brought it up today was that I hadn't realized that a card doctor was posting to the board rather regularly....almost solely for the purpose of advertising his service. Others may not have been aware of what Mr Towle does. Also Barry made an interesting point in the other thread...if you can't tell, does it matter?

This board reflects what is going on in the hobby...there really is no bigger news than what is happening with Mastro/Legendary/Doug Foreman and you're going to see a lot of posts on those subjects. If you don't like it you are free to start another thread.

[Reginald Marsh]

Ummmm Doug Forman or Bill Meistro is old news. I'm trying to find the common sense when a company is being investigated by the feds as to why people bid or consign with that auction house.

Can you imagine if Madoff just changed his company name and folks still relied on his firm to manage their life savings?

Maybe it is just me but i do not feel sorry for any consignors or bidders in regards to Legendary because everyone should have known better once the news broke about the investigation some time ago.

Beating a dead horse gets old and the truth of all of this is simple- Once a card is in a holder it is the end of the line. All the drama around the Honus Wagner and the fact it is not legit is hilarious. If the feds were getting anywhere with their findings then they should have the card cracked out and viewed by two different experts and then whoooaaaaa the game would get real interesting. People with high end cards could care less about message boards or altering just like coins when the coin goes in a PCGS MS-66 holder then the fun starts.

[E93]

...it will affect the Minty-mint collectors that are really concerned about population reports, but if that's not what you collect then it really shouldn't matter.

I disagree. I think there are just as many cards that have gone from vg to ex as there are cards that have gone from ex/mt to nm/mt. It just comes down to if it is worth the time for the $$$. If a doctor could change a $2000 vg Cobb into a $6000 ex or ex/mt Cobb, they will do it. It is not the specific condition label. It is the cash value of the change.
JimB
P.S. Without rebuilding corners, etc., which would be a much more involved and detectable change in general, it is not easy to find vintage cards that are even in shooting range of becoming nm/mt. It is much easier to rub out a wrinkle or minor crease and make a card ex.

[onlychild]

there is actually a section on this website explaining how to soak a card yet that is not brought up or questioned and neither are the people who wrote it.

As Leon said, those type of questions have been brought up a million times.

I wrote that section some time ago and trust me, the questioning has been relentless...it's par for the course. There are plenty of mixed feelings about soaking and opinions differ.

Where the line is drawn in the sand for alterations is up to each individual collector. As an example, my opinion is that if a cleaning or any other type of alteration can be detected...it's been doctored. Others would argue that point.

Kevin

[Rickyy]

If the improvements are made to a card without disclosure and submitted for grading and gets a higher grade than it should be in its original state (and without a qualifer), it makes all the legitimate non altered graded cards the same as altered non detected graded cards..so how does that make it ethical?


Ricky Yo

[barrysloate]

Dick- I say this with all due respect, but "paper wrinkle" is another term for "crease."

[bijoem]

I hate to single out this thread, because I think of this exchange with a bunch of other threads, but here goes......


Jerry Seinfeld: "What are we doing? ... What in God's name are we doing?"

Jason Alexander as George: "What."

Seinfeld: "What kind of lives are these? We're like children. We're not men."

Alexander: "No, we're not. We're not men."

Seinfeld: "We're pathetic, ya know that?"

Alexander: "Yeah, like I don't know that I'm pathetic."

[barrysloate]

Joe- you know you could have posted the same Seinfeld bit on the "America's Toughest Want List is Smoking Hot" thread and gotten a lot more mileage with it.