Question about recent purchase

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Posted By: Pete Z.

I picked this card up today at a local card show from a dealer who's willing to refund my money if it turns out to be a fake. As you can see it's in a PSA 3 holder without a T designation. Does anyone else think the back of the card appears too white?
Thanks in advance,
Pete

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Posted By: scott brockelman

its a real card coupon cigarettes type 2

scott

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

The interesting part is that PSA didn't indicate the card type on the label.

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Posted By: Joan

It is way lovely!

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Posted By: brian p

I think it is real, but it is way too white for my liking.

Brian

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Posted By: al davis

real and trimmed at top

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

A real T213, and may well be ever so slightly trimmed all the way around. Still a nice card. Not "too white" at all. Maybe someone mixed up a very weak solution of OxyClean and gave Mr. McGraw a bath and a good rinse, before his trimming and slabbing.

But it is a nice card. I'd cut him out with a hacksaw, though... while Mr. McGraw was an aggravation, and an attorney, he's commited not crime that justifies plastic prison.

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Posted By: dennis

if they are a professional grading company shouldn't you be able to resubmit this card to them? they then could re-slab it at no charge and get it right this time,or determine that the slab has been tampered with? that's what i would expect from a legitimate business.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

but the card does look trimmed, esp. the bottom. This is more what the sizing should be:

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Posted By: cmoking

I don't know anything about T206 or T213 cards - but I thought these cards came in roughly different sizes due to the imperfect factory machinary cutting back in the 1910s. So a card of the same player in the same set could be slightly different size without either being trimmed. Is that the case? If so, then how can anyone say they are trimmed by looking at the size of the card from a scan? I'm not debating it's not trimmed, just wondering what you guys are looking at or thinking about when you say it looks trimmed (especially if cards did come in different sizes back then).

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

"...while Mr. McGraw was an aggravation, and an attorney, he's commited not crime that justifies plastic prison."



I don't remember Muggsy graduating from Law School.

Frank

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Posted By: leon

Is that it is fine. I have had quite a few of all of the series. The only one that is always "short"/ "thin" are the type 3's. This card looks ok...and yes cmoking is correct in that most series had a little deviation to their sizes. Type 2 coupons less than many other's though...(it's hard to see the bottom border but the corners match fairly well)..regards

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Ok, I don't remember that far back either, I graduated law school in 1987...

I thought I'd read in a McGraw biography (was it by Alexander?) that both McGraw and Hughie Jennings got law degrees while coaching baseball at a college, the name of which I don't recall, but I believe it was the predecessor to St. Bonaventure. Might have been Alegheny College??

I can't find my McGraw book (which I recall was a great read), it isn't under the bed or on the bookshelves, so I suspect it is in a box in the attic.

So I'll dig through boxes in a few days, and either give you book and page number, or admit to a faulty memory.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

the upper and lower right don't look right to me.

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Posted By: cmoking

I think it was something else that clinched it for you!

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Posted By: Pete Z.

at once when you guys raised the spector of trimming (the card is 1/32nd short top to bottom btw) and bleaching. I was later reassured by Leon's guess that the card is probably ok, and am looking forward to a response to similar questions about the card's condition I posed in an email to Bob Luce at SGC. If he says all bets are off re a crossover based on his review of the scans, then the card's going back. I really hope it works out 'cause the card would make a great addition as my t213 type.
Thanks.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

"I thought I'd read in a McGraw biography (was it by Alexander?) that both McGraw and Hughie Jennings got law degrees while coaching baseball at a college, the name of which I don't recall, but I believe it was the predecessor to St. Bonaventure. Might have been Alegheny College??"


Frank....Jennings did indeed get his law degree at Allegany college. McGraw never graduated. Not really fair to you since I just finished "The Old Ballgame" by Deford...the story of Matty and Muggsy.

Frank

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Posted By: tbob

Leave it in the holder. SGC will not cross this card over. I disagree with my friend Leon here regarding the 1914 Coupons. I've handled hundreds of the series 2 (20 for 5 cents) cards and don't recall ever seeing a single one which had size difference the way this McGraw does. On the other hand, I agree with Leon when he says the series 3 (16 for 10 cents) 1919 cards are much smaller than series 1 and 2. They are, but the series 2 cards don't have the deviations in size of the E90-1 or M116s, rather they are pretty consistently exact.
If you plan on keeping it, leave it in the holder or bust it out and slip it in to a Mylar holder, your preference. If you plan on selling it, leave it in the holder for the best price. I believe the card is trimmed and removing it will cost you.

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Posted By: leon

I am not sure that SGC will cross this over if it doesn't meet size requirements. The only way I've gotten around that is to send them other cards, at the same time, from the same series so they can see the sizes side by side. I have a T215 McGraw that looks way short but I sent it in with another T215 (obviously not trimmed with well rounded corners) and both measured the same and both graded. If anyone looked at that McGraw they would say it's definitely trimmed. It's not though. Again, my guess is still that this one isn't, from the scan shown. Would be better to see it in person, obviously. good luck and let us know...

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Posted By: Rick

In the scan of the back you can see how all 4 corners show some wear...so if the card was trimmed, what was the point of it?

The card is a PSA 3...maybe im just naive ...but why would a card doctor spend lots time trimming this card then damaging the corners again?

what could have been the original grade of the card in raw form? a 2...

how much does a PSA 2 cost vs a PSA 3?

the crook would have to spend lots of time, grading fees in case PSA rejected it a couple of times for what?

theifs are lazy...they wouldnt go throught all this hassle for such a small profit. a hard working theif doesnt exist...they would just get jobs

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Maybe a kid did it, or a collector who could not store it otherwise. I bought a lower grade T card once that had obviously been oversized and trimmed on the top by someone a long time ago so it would measure the same as the other cards in the collection. Didn't Buck Barker trim down E cards to fit T sheets (not suggesting its a Barker card; merely offering an example of a non-nefarious trimming)?

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Posted By: leon

Wasn't such a bad thing 30-50 years ago. I remember when Lew Lipset auctioned off the Macpherson (sp?) collection. I believe he had said that Don was always cutting cards down to fit in holders. I have heard many other stories of similar incidents by other old time collectors.....So I am sure a lot of the cards that are trimmed came from older collector's collections. It was no big deal AND they had to get them to fit into the holders/sheets somehow ... regards

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Just think:

If the ORIGINAL collectors of baseball cards back in the 1880's (Old Judge) and the 1910's (T206) had found it FASHIONABLE to TRIM every card in order to make them fit in holders...

then TRIMMING would be ACCEPTABLE!!!

And if it was...

then we wouldn't have to pay THOUSANDS of dollars to buy "certified untrimmed" cards...

when we could just buy one with bad corners and TRIM IT OURSELVES without "ruining" the card!!!



How nice would that be?

Should't the hobby REALLY be about how cool the cards look... and NOT whether they are a millimeter short??

Coulda, shoulda, woulda.

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Posted By: Pete Z.

It's not trimmed (you have it in hand to know this). PSA promptly responded to my email about the error in the label with a phone call yesterday to tell me that they would fix the "mechanical error" for free. Personally, I think this card looks better in a PSA holder. Thanks for your help on this matter.