T205 Pecking Order - Question for Doug and others

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Posted By: Plastic Dog 

Doug and other experts (TBob etc.),

How do you rate the full list of T205 difficult cards (top 10, 15 or even 20)? I think you all may have posted it before on the Full Count Board, may it rest in peace, but I never bothered to print it out. Also, are there any on Lew Lipset's list in the Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards that you think shouldn't be there, or any that should be added? (I don't have it in front of me, but he basically mentioned Shean and Graham Cubs as most difficult, followed by the minor leaguers, followed by an established list, followed by another list that was less well established but becoming increasingly accepted as difficult.) Can you all factor in back variants into the thinking here?

[The T207s become the next obvious target - certain to drum up arguments concerning front-back combos and scarcity. I think all of the guides need to have disclaimers on this set especially, as I assume that back multipliers don't apply to cards issued only with rare backs - the scarcity is already factored into the catalog price. Right?]

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Posted By: Doug Allen

I will defer to TBob as the expert. My experience was from putting together my personal set. I would list the following ranking:
Impossible - Hobby no stats
Really difficult - Moran Stray Line, Joss, Shean (Cubs), Graham (Cubs), Wallace (no cap 1 line)
Difficult - Collins (mouth open), Bres (mouth open), Wiltse, Turner, Grant, Suggs, Wallace (no cap 2 line) Wilhelm, Chase, Fisher, Vaughn.
Kind of difficult (a bit overrated) - Barger, Dougherty (red sock)Ford, Harmon, Ford, Raymond, Rowan, White, Walsh & Minor leaguers

This is from memory someone will surely let me know if I missed any tough ones.

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

Lipset's book has the T205's in this level of difficulty (descending):

1. Shean (Cubs)
2. Graham (Cubs)
3. minor leaguers (12 in all)
4. Dahlen, Donohue, Dougherty (white sock), Fisher, Karger, Kleinow, Scanlan, Sweeney, Suggs, Wagner, Walsh
5. Barger, Bresnahan (mouth open), Chase (no Hal), Collins (mouth open), Ford (white cap), Grant, Harmon (left ear), Joss, Raymond, Rowan, Turner, Vaughn, Wallace (no cap), White, Wilhelm, Wiltse (right ear)

As a relative T205 novice, I find won't argue with most of this list, except that I think the minor leaguers are overrated for difficulty and are much easier to find than many of the variations he cites. Whether Graham is tougher than Shean or Joss or Dahlen is too tough to call. I should note that I have some weird magnetic pull for the Wiltse right ear card - seems to be the easiest T205 I know...

The SCD price guide has these completely messed up - their prices don't correspond to difficulty at all.

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Posted By: Brian Hodes

I have a set (minus a variation or 2) that I have been upgrading and my take is that the Hobby (no stats) is much more difficult than the others (it's a 4 figure card in any shape). I don't know what the population is but few and far between would certainly be conservative.
Next I think is the Wallace (1 line).
This is followed in no particular order by the Graham (Cubs), Moran (stray line), the Joss and the Shean (Cubs). Joss and Wallace command the highest prices here because they are HOFers (especially the Joss which is a sad/neat card issued after his death).
The next crew includes: the other no cap Wallace, the open variations of Collins (the nicest one I've seen is just an Ex-Mt) and Bresnahan (again HOFers with bigger price tags). Additionally, I would add the Suggs and Chase (one ear).
After that I would go with (in no order): Vaughan,
Kirby White, Dahlen, Raymond, Turner Wilhelm, Grant, Ford (white cap), and Barger (var.)
After that I guess the others listed by Lipset (including Walsh) and the other Hobby variations and all of the minor leaguers (really beautiful cards, especially the post major league card of HOFer Jimmy Collins).
Hope this helps...
By the way if anyone has a Moran (stray line) in nice shape or a Hobby (no stats) in any shape I'd be interested.

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Posted By: TBob

Everyone can see Lipset's difficulty gradients for the T205s and check out their SCDs, but I think there are some hidden tough as nails cards out there in this set. Everyone knows how impossible the Hoblitzell no stats is, the dynamic duo of Graham and Shean Cubs, Collins mouth open, etc., I wanted to find some hidden toughies. I hesitate to spring my gleaned knowledge on the board because I know I'll be bidding against you guys in the future on these suckers, but here goes:
The Mystery 5 Tough Guys (in descending order)
5. Rowan. Yes this appears on everyone's list of the 50 toughies but damn this is not only very hard to find but almost impossible to pick up in EX or better shape. Maybe the yellow background has something to do with the fact that when you do find one if is usually soiled (and beaten up).
3. Tie. McAlister and Lee. The two tough ones in the minor league subset. Try and find a McAlister without a crease. Much tougher than the other minor leaguers in my experience. Watty Lee is also a killer. I have seen twenty "Nee" cards (also a T205 minor leaguer) for every "Lee" card. Very tough to find in top shape. One was on ebay last week and was the first "clean" Lee I have seen in a long, long time. I think it was a PSA 4, maybe 5.
2. Joss. I don't know what it is about this card but it is another one that is truly scarce plus you NEVER see one without a crease. One on ebay 2 years ago or so which was snared by Doug Allen (I think), that has just about been it. I see 15 Bresnahan mouth opened for every Joss.
1. Surprise, surprise. Hoblitzell again. OK, you say, big deal, everyone knows the prices for a Hobby no stats. Ahhh, this is a different variation. There are 5 different Hoblitzell variations: Hobby no stats, Hobby with one "L" in name on back, Hobby with Big "Cin" in stats, Hobby with Little "Cin" in stats and this one, the plain jane vanilla Hoblitzell spelled correctly with NO Cin in stats. Think it is easy to find? Although every seller and his dog on ebay trumpets the traditionally held "rare 'Cin' on back" variation cards, there are zillions of them compared to this one. This variation is second only to the no stats numero uno card. Someone on ebay picked up a VGEX Hoblitzell 2"L's" no "Cin" on ebay recently for around $125-130 and got a steal! I have a complete set of T205s in excellent condition and I'll be darned if I can find an upgrade for my G/VG Hobby 2L's No Cin.
OK, that's my 2 cents worth.

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Posted By: Plastic Dog

TBob, I promise I won't bid against you for these cards. As far as you know.

Tom

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Posted By: jay behrens

Maybe I just got really lucky when I put together my 205s. the only card I had real trouble getting was the Joss. A lot of the cards you guys are listing as toughies were among some of the first ones I owned when I started the set. I knocked out all the Hobl's pretty quickly. Dumb luck I guess.

Jay

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Posted By: TBob

Hey Jay, when you mentioned knocking off all the Hobby variations, does that include the "no stats?" If so, I am very, very jealous!

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Posted By: jay behrens

You have reason to very jealous then. The no stat was the very first Hobl I got. And just to add to the jealousy factor, back in 1982 I got open 50 packs of cigarettes that had 205s in them. Just wished they weren't owned by someone else, but it was still fun to open them.

Jay

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Posted By: ephuspitch

As usual, I'm chiming in from the completely novice side of the room.

After reading the enlightening ranking of Hoblitzell cards above, I still can't figure out if I've got the complete garden variety, or a slightly-more-difficult variety.

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Posted By: runscott

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Posted By: runscott

I've been getting emails asking me what's different about this card - what's different is that an owner wrote 'Cin' on the back. Most obvious on the letter 'n'. I didn't include the e-bay link because I'm certain the current seller doesn't realize what's happened - he's selling a large lot he picked up.

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Posted By: jay behrens

What's up with his lips. looks like they are off resigister, or else he is a vampire with a blood mustache.

Jay

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Posted By: runscott

Jay...haven't you seen the ads?