Honus Wagner t206 in Goldin tomorrow (6/21/25) - what will it sell for?

[Rhotchkiss]

My card. I was only willing to sell it if I got my price, thus the reserve. My contract reserve was substantially higher than where it ended. We discussed at length whether we start the auction at my reserve or whether we run a process, etc. Ultimately, we decided to start the bidding at $2mm.

I think Goldin did an amazing job marketing the card. In the end, the card is not yet worth what I am willing to part with it at. I don’t intend to comment further.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

My card. In the end, the card is not yet worth what I am willing to part with it at. I don’t intend to comment further.

+1 Great Card!

[bcbgcbrcb]

Agree with you. Minimum bid at the lowest price you would accept is the way to go. Nobody can question anything then. To the contrary, I’ve never seen a sports AH start an auction with a minimum bid as high as yours would have been. They will always sell the point that it is better to get multiple bidders involved. Thus, the door is wide open then for any type of manipulation that can possibly happen.

One question, do we know definitively whether VCP picks up that auction result in their data. Maybe Bobby can answer that?

[oldjudge]

They shouldn't--the number is meaningless

[Johnny630]

When you have this level of the card, there is only a slim, slim base of actual potential buyers who can and would want to spend that kind of money on an asset that is not as easily liquid at a price and time said wealthy investors would want.

To me too risky to put this kind of money on said asset at this time with us equities and real estate potentially going lower in the upcoming couple of years.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

When you have this level of the card, there is only a slim, slim base of actual potential buyers who can and would want to spend that kind of money on an asset that is not as easily liquid at a price and time said wealthy investors would want.

To me too risky to put this kind of money on said asset at this time with us equities and real estate potentially going lower in the upcoming couple of years.

Correct. This environment must definitely affected the price.

[cardsagain74]

Has there ever been such a high profile card up for "auction" at the major houses (where the reality was much closer to an overpriced BIN situation, so it didn't come close to selling?)

Hope this never becomes more of a norm. Not a good look for the industry.

[benjulmag]

Any bidding process that allows the AH the right to bid on the consignor's behalf, regardless of the reserve being disclosed at the outset of bidding, is an invitation for manipulation. Why? Because under such a system bidders have no way of knowing if any particular bid was placed by the AH on the consignor's behalf or was bid by a genuine third-party bidder prepared to purchase based on that hammer bid. Disclosure by the AH of any reserve can somewhat reduce the likelihood of future manipulation, at least at that price level where the reserve has been disclosed and reached, and the bidding has reached a level around what the market expected the item to fetch pre-bidding. However, even in that instance, a bidder would still run the risk that the only reason the reserve was reached was because a prior bid had been induced based on the false assumption by that bidder that he/she was bidding against a real third-party bidder and not the AH.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

My card. I was only willing to sell it if I got my price, thus the reserve. My contract reserve was substantially higher than where it ended. We discussed at length whether we start the auction at my reserve or whether we run a process, etc. Ultimately, we decided to start the bidding at $2mm.

I think Goldin did an amazing job marketing the card. In the end, the card is not yet worth what I am willing to part with it at. I don’t intend to comment further.

I respect the fact that you are not willing to sell until you reach your price. My issue is that you appear willing to sell only under a bidding system that allows the AH to manipulate the market to allow it to reach your price. Take the case at hand -- the just-completed Goldin auction. Suppose, say, your reserve was a hammer price of $5M, and, say further, that all bids in excess of $3M were placed by the AH, until the bidding reached $4.9M. And then, at that level, a bid was finally placed at $5M to take it to your $5M minimum, at which point the auction ended. How do we know the person who placed that $5M bid would have been willing to do so if he/she knew he/she was the only bidder above $3M? Humans bid in part based on their perception about what other bidders would be willing to pay. Yes, I get it the AH rules in the fine print disclose that AH bidding on the behalf of the consignor is allowed. But, as evidenced by the discussion in this thread alone, many bidders do not read/understand the full implications of what this means.

This practice of AH bidding is something I have been railing about for many years. IMO, it is nothing less than legalized fraud, rationalized that it is okay to con somebody as long as you give notice ahead of time (via the fine print in the AH rules) that you are trying to con him/her.

In outlining all of this I am not saying you are bad person, or did anything (i) AHs do not encourage or (ii) that the great majority of potential consignors would not be willing to do. But to me the system stinks and should be changed.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

I respect the fact that you are not willing to sell until you reach your price. My issue is that you appear willing to sell only under a bidding system that allows the AH to manipulate the market to allow it to reach your price.

This statement is incorrect. I did not use Goldin bc of their “bidding system”. Indeed, that was not even a consideration for me. Rather, I used Goldin bc i have had a lot of success with them on prior sales (never a reserve), I knew Ken would market the heck out of it (and he did), and because Joe is a friend and I trust him. This is the only card I ever consigned with a reserve (to Goldin or anyone), and bottom line is the card is not yet worth what I need to part with it.

[brunswickreeves]

FWIW, I think the consignor did right by his card. He entered the auction in earnest to find it a new home with someone whom valued it more than he did. That didn’t happen this time, so the card remains with the person whom values and cherishes it most.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Really, Rob? I’m not seeing many Net54’erd consigning vintage baseball cards to Sotheby’s, Christie’s, Bonham’s, etc. I couldn’t afford to pay the shipping cost alone in a Christie’s auction.

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Really, Rob? I’m not seeing many Net54’erd consigning vintage baseball cards to Sotheby’s, Christie’s, Bonham’s, etc. I couldn’t afford to pay the shipping cost alone in a Christie’s auction.

I believe that this is the way that some auction houses in our hobby do it too, such as Mile High Card Company, SCP, etc.

I am not saying that I like this method, but it seems to be very common within the auction business and the norm with the big international houses. It not like Goldin is alone.

[Snapolit1]

How is this any different from me just asking my best friend to push my card into the millions and stop just a dollar before the undeclared reserve price. Lets see if we can get someone in the hook and reel him in. No one would be defending that as ethical. Why is it any different if the auction house is doing it. I’d say it’s even worse.

Even though it says in the fine print that this could happen, me as the bidder of course has no idea whether or not it’s a legitimate bidder on the other end.

I would think any bid on an auction that is not intended in good faith to win an item is a fraudulent bid.

[oldjudge]

I think all auction house bids should show up as such in a bid history.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I think all auction house bids should show up as such is a bid history.

It would also be cool to know how much it costs to put a reserve on a card like that. It sure couldn't have been free to run the auction and not sell it.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

i think all auction house bids should show up as such is a bid history.

100%

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

How is this any different from me just asking my best friend to push my card into the millions and stop just a dollar before the undeclared reserve price. Lets see if we can get someone in the hook and reel him in. No one would be defending that as ethical. Why is it any different if the auction house is doing it. I’d say it’s even worse.

Even though it says in the fine print that this could happen, me as the bidder of course has no idea whether or not it’s a legitimate bidder on the other end.

I would think any bid on an auction that is not intended in good faith to win an item is a fraudulent bid.

Not much difference, in terms of the impact but in one case the house is telling you that is what is happening and in the other it lacks the disclosure. In my opinion there is a lot of both instances going on in these auctions. Know what you want to pay and be willing to walk away empty handed.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

This statement is incorrect. I did not use Goldin bc of their “bidding system”. Indeed, that was not even a consideration for me. Rather, I used Goldin bc i have had a lot of success with them on prior sales (never a reserve), I knew Ken would market the heck out of it (and he did), and because Joe is a friend and I trust him. This is the only card I ever consigned with a reserve (to Goldin or anyone), and bottom line is the card is not yet worth what I need to part with it.

Your own words -- "We discussed at length whether we start the auction at my reserve or whether we run a process, etc."

The "process" here I would characterize as market manipulation. None of this would be the case if you started at your reserve as you had the option to do. Ken advised you correctly. The process, which, yes, many AHs employ, is intended to induce third-party bids that were made only because of the belief the prior bid was a "real" (i.e,, not AH bid). So, you stood a better chance of realizing your minimum sell price by this method than by simply starting at your reserve.

I take you at your word that you did not use Goldin because they employ such a bidding system. As noted, many other AHs employ the same system. The question is the next time you look to sell it, assuming you sell it at auction, will you be willing to either sell with an AH that does not bid on the behalf of the consignor, or in the alternative start the bidding at your reserve price?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

bottom line is the card is not yet worth what I need to part with it.

Enough said.

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

I respect the fact that you are not willing to sell until you reach your price. My issue is that you appear willing to sell only under a bidding system that allows the AH to manipulate the market to allow it to reach your price. Take the case at hand -- the just-completed Goldin auction. Suppose, say, your reserve was a hammer price of $5M, and, say further, that all bids in excess of $3M were placed by the AH, until the bidding reached $4.9M. And then, at that level, a bid was finally placed at $5M to take it to your $5M minimum, at which point the auction ended. How do we know the person who placed that $5M bid would have been willing to do so if he/she knew he/she was the only bidder above $3M? Humans bid in part based on their perception about what other bidders would be willing to pay. Yes, I get it the AH rules in the fine print disclose that AH bidding on the behalf of the consignor is allowed. But, as evidenced by the discussion in this thread alone, many bidders do not read/understand the full implications of what this means.

This practice of AH bidding is something I have been railing about for many years. IMO, it is nothing less than legalized fraud, rationalized that it is okay to con somebody as long as you give notice ahead of time (via the fine print in the AH rules) that you are trying to con him/her.

In outlining all of this I am not saying you are bad person, or did anything (i) AHs do not encourage or (ii) that the great majority of potential consignors would not be willing to do. But to me the system stinks and should be changed.

Isn't this how most of the major auction houses conduct their auctions in regards to reserves? Sotheby's, Christie's, Bonham's, collectible car auctions, etc?