Poll - Greatest Living Player

[G1911]

Originally Posted by aro13

All I said was Koufax was very good up until 1961 and then starting in 1962 he was great. ERA + accounts for park, but not for the extreme differences in parks for various pitchers. The same way OPS+ doesn't account for the huge advantage some players had playing in Fenway Park or Coors Field.

He performed at the league average level until 1961. That is not “very good.”

[aro13]

Originally Posted by G1911

He performed at the league average level until 1961. That is not “very good.”

You're using one statistic that doesn't accurately reflect how well he pitched. But if you think he was average until 1962 and then suddenly became the best pitcher ever, that's fine.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by aro13

You're using one statistic that doesn't accurately reflect how well he pitched. But if you think he was average until 1962 and then suddenly became the best pitcher ever, that's fine.

You know what, mea culpa. All of the players people like are just better than objectivity suggests despite the math. Koufax was very good even as he gave up league average runs and did a definably average performance at his job.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by G1911

You know what, mea culpa. All of the players people like are just better than objectivity suggests despite the math. Koufax was very good even as he gave up league average runs and did a definably average performance at his job.

If he was arguing that Spahn was the greater player over Koufax methinks suddenly Koufax’s peak stats would be more important to you out of a desire to be contrarian.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Carter08

If he was arguing that Spahn was the greater player over Koufax methinks suddenly Koufax’s peak stats would be more important to you out of a desire to be contrarian.

You may refer to the 1,000+ post best lefty thread for my opinion there. Please, go find a contradiction! Great opportunity to get me if you can.

[Peter_Spaeth]

By ERA+, Pedro, Maddux and Unit had a better peak stretch than Koufax. Not that Koufax's peak wasn't phenomenal, but I think in some people's minds he gets a bump for nostalgia bias and mystique.

GREATEST 5-YEAR PEAKS BY ERA+

# NAME Years AGE 5Y_IP 5Y_ERA+
1 Pedro Martinez 99--03 29 933 227
2 Greg Maddux 94--98 30 1140.3 202
3 Walter Johnson 11--15 25 1745.7 200
4 Mordecai Brown 06--10 31 1460.7 182
5 Randy Johnson 98--02 36 1274.3 177
6 Lefty Grove 35--39 37 1143 173
7 Christy Mathewson 08--12 29 1601.3 171
8 Sandy Koufax 62--66 28 1377 168
9 Kevin Brown 96--00 33 1209.7 165
10 Hal Newhouser 42--46 23 1297.7 164

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

By ERA+, Pedro, Maddux and Unit had a better peak stretch than Koufax. Not that Koufax's peak wasn't phenomenal, but I think in some people's minds he gets a bump for nostalgia bias and mystique.

GREATEST 5-YEAR PEAKS BY ERA+

# NAME Years AGE 5Y_IP 5Y_ERA+
1 Pedro Martinez 99--03 29 933 227
2 Greg Maddux 94--98 30 1140.3 202
3 Walter Johnson 11--15 25 1745.7 200
4 Mordecai Brown 06--10 31 1460.7 182
5 Randy Johnson 98--02 36 1274.3 177
6 Lefty Grove 35--39 37 1143 173
7 Christy Mathewson 08--12 29 1601.3 171
8 Sandy Koufax 62--66 28 1377 168
9 Kevin Brown 96--00 33 1209.7 165
10 Hal Newhouser 42--46 23 1297.7 164

Koufax did throw over 400 innings more than Pedro and over 200 more than Maddux. Who knows if they would have been able to sustain their level of performance over an equal workload to Koufax. Also, I think people give credit to Koufax for pitching through significant injury.

[aro13]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

By ERA+, Pedro, Maddux and Unit had a better peak stretch than Koufax. Not that Koufax's peak wasn't phenomenal, but I think in some people's minds he gets a bump for nostalgia bias and mystique.

GREATEST 5-YEAR PEAKS BY ERA+

# NAME Years AGE 5Y_IP 5Y_ERA+
1 Pedro Martinez 99--03 29 933 227
2 Greg Maddux 94--98 30 1140.3 202
3 Walter Johnson 11--15 25 1745.7 200
4 Mordecai Brown 06--10 31 1460.7 182
5 Randy Johnson 98--02 36 1274.3 177
6 Lefty Grove 35--39 37 1143 173
7 Christy Mathewson 08--12 29 1601.3 171
8 Sandy Koufax 62--66 28 1377 168
9 Kevin Brown 96--00 33 1209.7 165
10 Hal Newhouser 42--46 23 1297.7 164

If you make it a 7 year stretch Pedro is even better. In 1997 he put up a 1.90 era and threw 13 complete games. It's probably one of the most overlooked great seasons in the past 30 years.
Runs saved is a better metric than ERA+ to evaluate pitchers as it factors in innings pitched as well.

[packs]

A-Rod did win two MVPs in New York and he came up big in the postseason in 2009, but my memories of his time on the team were mostly of a guy who seemed to be very good when it didn't always matter and had a tendency to disappear when it did.

I wouldn't say Jeter was better than A-Rod when you're talking about stats or even natural ability, but he is someone most Yankees fans have always seen as a guy you could count on to come up in a big spot. He also won a WS MVP to back it up. I think that counts for something even if it's hard to show with stats.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

A-Rod did win two MVPs in New York and he came up big in the postseason in 2009, but my memories of his time on the team were mostly of a guy who seemed to be very good when it didn't always matter and had a tendency to disappear when it did.

I wouldn't say Jeter was better than A-Rod when you're talking about stats or even natural ability, but he is someone most Yankees fans have always seen as a guy you could count on to come up in a big spot. He also won a WS MVP to back it up. I think that counts for something even if it's hard to show with stats.

I have the same recollection of Boggs in Boston, as I've posted, but it's probably not accurate.

[aro13]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I have the same recollection of Boggs in Boston, as I've posted, but it's probably not accurate.

Watching Boggs play in Boston for his entire career I tend to agree with you by the eye test. However, with Boggs he never deviated from his plan regardless of the situation. He would virtually always take the first pitch, he didn't venture out of the strike zone, he hit mostly everything to center and left-center. His career stats indicated he wasn't nearly as good with 2 outs and runners in scoring position (.306 to .335) and late and close situations (.309 to .335). And because he didn't ever deviate he didn't drive in as many runs. The Red Sox were a slow base running team to begin with, but a majority of Boggs two out singles were hit to left field and particularly at Fenway that is not going to score a runner from second. His value is enormous because of his OBP but objectively and subjectively he wasn't nearly as good when it counted.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by aro13

Watching Boggs play in Boston for his entire career I tend to agree with you by the eye test. However, with Boggs he never deviated from his plan regardless of the situation. He would virtually always take the first pitch, he didn't venture out of the strike zone, he hit mostly everything to center and left-center. His career stats indicated he wasn't nearly as good with 2 outs and runners in scoring position (.306 to .335) and late and close situations (.309 to .335). And because he didn't ever deviate he didn't drive in as many runs. The Red Sox were a slow base running team to begin with, but a majority of Boggs two out singles were hit to left field and particularly at Fenway that is not going to score a runner from second. His value is enormous because of his OBP but objectively and subjectively he wasn't nearly as good when it counted.

He truly seemed to care only about his hit totals. He would protest, apparently, when an error was called instead of awarding him a hit. You would think in a key situation you would rejoice to see a .350 hitter (at that time in his career he was) coming up, but quite the opposite.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He truly seemed to care only about his hit totals. He would protest, apparently, when an error was called instead of awarding him a hit. You would think in a key situation you would rejoice to see a .350 hitter (at that time in his career he was) coming up, but quite the opposite.

He wouldn't be the first player to protest an error call on an apparent base hit. Especially considering he was always a candidate to win a batting title.

Boggs scored over 1500 runs in his career, including 7 straight years scoring 100+ runs. I think it's a little tough to downgrade him for also not driving in a bunch of runs. Rod Carew was the same type of player, although he scored fewer runs in his career than Boggs.

Appreciate what he does do - high on-base percentage (keeping rallies alive) and being on the scoring end. It's not all about driving runs in.