Poll - Greatest Living Player

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Of all the players to single out, and you are going with Bench and Schmidt?

Bench is arguably the greatest catcher ever.

Schmidt is the greatest 3rd basemen ever. He was an elite fielder--and has a career WAR over 100. He won MVP 3x, and finished in the top 10 five other times. His career OPS+ of 148 is in the top 50 ever. He is one of 3 players (with Griffey Jr. and Mays) to win at least 10 Gold Gloves and hit 500 Home Runs. And you are singling out Mike Schmidt as a bad choice?

I agree that Bench and Schmidt are 2 surprising choices to complain about. If I had to pick the result that I found most surprising, it would be the number of votes for Pete Rose. Regardless of his gambling issues, I agree he was a great player, but power hitters usually get thought of more than singles hitters when you talk about the greatest players in baseball.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by jayshum

I agree that Bench and Schmidt are 2 surprising choices to complain about. If I had to pick the result that I found most surprising, it would be the number of votes for Pete Rose. Regardless of his gambling issues, I agree he was a great player, but power hitters usually get thought of more than singles hitters when you talk about the greatest players in baseball.

I agree 100%.

It is amazing to me that Pete Rose has the 3 most number of votes. He was a versatile fielder, but not a particularly good one. And he was a one-dimensional hitter. Let's not forget that in addition to betting on baseball, he was also corking his bat at the end of his career, as he tried to pass Cobb on the all-time hits list.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think there's an easy explanation for Rose's stature -- he broke one of baseball's most sacred records that was long considered untouchable.

[packs]

He did break the record but if you're going to pick a player in the same vein as Rose, I think Wade Boggs was infinitely better.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

He did break the record but if you're going to pick a player in the same vein as Rose, I think Wade Boggs was infinitely better.

I was not a fan. Purely anecdotal, but it seemed he never got a hit in a meaningful situation. Bases empty up or down five runs, he was awesome lol.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I was not a fan. Purely anecdotal, but it seemed he never got a hit in a meaningful situation. Bases empty up or down five runs, he was awesome lol.

Are you talking about Arod? Because that is what I remember about him. I believe Boggs batted around .360 with runners in scoring position.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Are you talking about Arod? Because that is what I remember about him. I believe Boggs batted around .360 with runners in scoring position.

Not an easy stat to find, but finally found it for individual players on baseball-reference.com. Boggs hit .324 with RISP. ARod was .292.

I haven't been able to find a career leaderboard anywhere.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Are you talking about Arod? Because that is what I remember about him. I believe Boggs batted around .360 with runners in scoring position.

I swear I never saw him get a clutch hit and I saw a lot of him. Memory may be distorted by my dislike of his attitude and obsession with his own stats.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I was not a fan. Purely anecdotal, but it seemed he never got a hit in a meaningful situation. Bases empty up or down five runs, he was awesome lol.

He has an OPS of .806 or higher in every "clutch" category on baseball reference.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think there's an easy explanation for Rose's stature -- he broke one of baseball's most sacred records that was long considered untouchable.

Yes, his overtaking Cobb (while corking his bat) is the explanation. It is not a good one.

[packs]

I just don't see a very good player in Pete Rose's stats. He's essentially an Ichiro clone. Their numbers from ages 27 to 45 are strikingly similar. Only 6 people chose Ichiro though and in terms of Ichiro's career, only he and Pete Rose would have accumulated 3,000 hits from age 27 on.

I guess the record explains the disparity, but Ichiro was essentially the same player.

[jayshum]

double post

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by packs

I just don't see a very good player in Pete Rose's stats. He's essentially an Ichiro clone. Their numbers from ages 27 to 45 are strikingly similar. Only 6 people chose Ichiro though and in terms of Ichiro's career, only he and Pete Rose would have accumulated 3,000 hits from age 27 on.

I guess the record explains the disparity, but Ichiro was essentially the same player.

Are you saying you don't think either Rose or Ichiro were at least very good players? That's hard to agree with.

[packs]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Are you saying you don't think either Rose or Ichiro were at least very good players? That's hard to agree with.

No, I think they were great at one thing, I'm just not sure that one thing has enough value to elevate them to greatest living player.

It's impossible to ignore a player like Ichiro's peak, but when you look at his entire career and compare his final stats to other HOFers, I do think you're looking at a low-tier HOFer and I would say the same is true of Rose.

Ichiro: 757 career OPS with an OPS+ of 107
Rose: 784 OPS with an OPS+ of 118

All that to say I'm a big Ichiro fan and I loved watching him play. I just don't think he has a case for greatest living player and I don't think there's all that much separating him from Rose, so I have a hard time seeing Rose in the conversation. I think Wade Boggs was better than both of them and is probably the greatest living hitter from a batting title / average perspective. I think it was always Gwynn then Boggs as long as Gwynn was still alive.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by packs

I just don't see a very good player in Pete Rose's stats. He's essentially an Ichiro clone. Their numbers from ages 27 to 45 are strikingly similar. Only 6 people chose Ichiro though and in terms of Ichiro's career, only he and Pete Rose would have accumulated 3,000 hits from age 27 on.

I guess the record explains the disparity, but Ichiro was essentially the same player.

I agree that Rose and Ichiro were similar offensively. I do give the edge to Rose because he led the League in doubles 5x and walked more.

But I think Ichiro was more well-balanced player. He stole more than twice as many bases and was a better fielder. Ichiro won 10 Gold Gloves. Rose won just 2 Gold Gloves.

[Beercan collector]

I’m not a big Pete Rose fan but he was great .
4256 hits is a big number , He hit .321 in 301 postseason at bats,
Played in six World Series and won three of them ,
MVP in ‘75 series -
was part of the big red machine and he had some kind of hitting streak