Harrison Butker graduation speech

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That there are far greater threats to gays (and of course there are) does not make the anti-gay stance of the Catholic church or individuals somehow innocuous or inconsequential. It is still very hurtful to large numbers of people to whom the religion is important. The issue should be addressed on its own terms, IMO.

I think it’s quite interesting to see the much lesser issues attention is steered to. A kicker just saying he disagrees with homosexuality and believes it is a sin is not at all consequential. It really is not. If we cared, we would focus where there is consequence. This is just easy political bait the media loves, not a consequential thing at all. The church proposes no punishment or anything beyond saying they disagree with it. They call it a sin and then say God loved the sinner too. There is no consequence whatsoever.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think it’s quite interesting to see the much lesser issues attention is steered to. A kicker just saying he disagrees with homosexuality and believes it is a sin is not at all consequential. It really is not. If we cared, we would focus where there is consequence. This is just easy political bait the media loves, not a consequential thing at all. The church proposes no punishment or anything beyond saying they disagree with it. They call it a sin and then say God loved the sinner too. There is no consequence whatsoever.

Talk to my friend in law school who was driven out of his church and endured great emotional pain as a result. You don't think being stigmatized and told you're sinful by an institution that's an authority figure can be traumatic to people? It's just "not a consequential thing at all"?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Talk to my friend in law school who was driven out of his church and endured great emotional pain as a result.

In the real world, people are going to disagree with people. Gays nor any other group are or should be immune to this. I’m a having a very very hard time seeing how someone’s ‘emotional pain’ of not being sort of a group that their life and views are contrary with is a real consequential problem for the world. That’s how pretty much every organized group in the world works, if you fundamentally believe or think incompatible things you will not stay a part of that club, group, faith or company. The Catholics won’t accept me into their church either because my views are now contradictory to their theology. That’s every religion ever.

The Catholic record is infinitely better than other broad, common and widespread religions that concerned gay rights supporters are unwilling to criticize like they will the Catholics, even though the intolerance of the other faith is actually broadly consequential. It’s very interesting.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

In the real world, people are going to disagree with people. Gays nor any other group are or should be immune to this. I’m a having a very very hard time seeing how someone’s ‘emotional pain’ of not being sort of a group that their life and views are contrary with is a real consequential problem for the world. That’s how pretty much every organized group in the world works, if you fundamentally believe or think incompatible things you will not stay a part of that club, group, faith or company. The Catholics won’t accept me into their church either because my views are now contradictory to their theology. That’s every religion ever.

The Catholic record is infinitely better than other broad, common and widespread religions that concerned gay rights supporters are unwilling to criticize like they will the Catholics, even though the intolerance of the other faith is actually broadly consequential. It’s very interesting.

I think you are underestimating the importance of this sort of rejection and prejudice and ostracism on people's well being, and many people are not immune whether or not they should be. By your standards, I think, Black people should just shrug off all the prejudice directed at them, except if it actually has a consequence like not being hired. Not realistic IMO, and too indifferent to people's emotional and psychological health. I am not advocating for a society of snowflakes either. But we should be mindful of the effects of prejudice, especially coming from institutions like the church.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think you are underestimating the importance of this sort of rejection and prejudice and ostracism on people's well being, and many people are not immune whether or not they should be. By your standards, I think, Black people should just shrug off all the prejudice directed at them, except if it actually has a consequence like not being hired. Not realistic IMO, and too indifferent to people's emotional and psychological health. I am not advocating for a society of snowflakes either. But we should be mindful of the effects of prejudice, especially coming from institutions like the church.

Of course, it has to be about race . Black Americans have faced extremely consequential racism in the past, and on a micro level, I'm sure some still do as do people of every group on a micro level because there is always going to be X% that are just jackasses. If somebody says something you don't like without consequence, well then yes, get over it. One will live a miserable existence if they get upset and 'emotionally unhealthy' any time they encounter disagreement, just handle it healthily and move on. I've heard racism from every race directed to every race. It's now mostly all inconsequential as actionable racism is illegal in most regards and is socially not accepted. I really do not care if a black guy or a hispanic woman or a trans asian or a differently-abled Itlaian says something bad about the Irish. I really wouldn't see anything to complain about if they complained about an act I did they disagreed with.

Gays in 2024 in mostly Catholic parts of America do not face any real consequence. Everyone gets their feelings hurt, when an argument is 'your views and words hurt my feelings which we call emotional health to make it sound like it's actually hurting me' it's not a good argument. Guess what, I don't like encountering a host of views, and nobody cares except me because I don't have a political campaign behind me.

That is not a real consequential issue; I do not and will never advocate for any group who believes they have some sort of special right to never have to encounter differing views or dissent (a right, of course, never to be given to the other side). Getting your feelings hurt sucks, it really does. And it happens to all of us. Your gay friend is not special. This, frankly, is where most reticence to their agenda comes from now - 'gay rights' has come to largely mean not having to hear anyone disagreeing (harming 'emotional health') with their agenda, since there is no actual right they do not already have the same as everyone else. Just like this has gone, it quickly usually becomes about not wanting to have to hear any other view.

There is not an action consequence, the Church simply disagrees with them and I disagree with the Church's stance. Putting feelings first is rather absurd when there are other major faiths throwing gays off buildings and cutting off their heads.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I understand the perspective but to me it's too callous and "get over it" is not a helpful thing to say to people who are traumatized and may not have the self-assurance and capacity to do so.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I understand the perspective but to me it's too callous and "get over it" is not a helpful thing to say to people who are traumatized and may not have the self-assurance and capacity to do so.

As a liberal, I believe gays can be just as manly as straights . They can do it just as well as the rest of us.

No group has, needs or should ever have special protection of their feelings. The straights have no right to never encounter dissent, the Catholics have no right to never encounter dissent, the Irish have no right to never encounter dissent. Equality means getting the same deal as the rest of us.

You and I and Mr. Butker and your gay friend and a priest all have the same and equal protections. No more, and no less. Nobody's feelings are worth more than anyone else's.