NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-07-2024, 09:39 PM
Carter08 Carter08 is offline
J@mes Nonk.es
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 1,979
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey2296 View Post
Or we could look at it an alternative way, from a baseball card collector perspective.

We've heard from two bidders who won two of the 50+/- cards that were stolen.

Powell Miller who's reaction is Stoic as hell, especially after the Boston Garter shitshow, he's someone I would like to meet and have a sandwich with sometime. He now owns a 7.5 Cobb bat off, is ML shipping tomorrow? No of course not, but he owns it and doesn't have to pay for it until delivery.
If it turns up 3 years from now he still owns it, it's his card and this auction has clearly established ownership. And he owns it at the strike price

Daryl owns the only Mello Mint Cobb, (congrats Daryl) that card belongs in his collection and he owns it.

I don't see him complaining about the the stuff that rabbit hole central is complaining about, he just wants his card, he owns it now and is a fantastic addition to his set, just because he doesn't have possession yet is immaterial.

I'm a little hesitant to prioritize the opinions of folks that aren't in the 50+/- crowd and have no skin in the game, a lot of pearl clutching outrage on this sub.

I'd like to hear the perspective of bidders who actually own the cards in question.
What do they own?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-07-2024, 09:45 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
Gr.eg McCl.@y
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 7,416
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carter08 View Post
What do they own?
Nothing. But that’s a silly rabbit hole detail.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-07-2024, 10:51 PM
Casey2296's Avatar
Casey2296 Casey2296 is offline
Is Mudville so bad?
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: West Coast
Posts: 5,381
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
Nothing. But that’s a silly rabbit hole detail.
I tend to look at things from a real estate perspective because that's the business I'm in.
If you offered me a property at a specific price and I agreed to that price but I didn't have to pay 1 cent to acquire the rights to that property but had the option to consummate the deal at a future date based on future value how is that not a win for me?
__________________
Phil Lewis


https://www.flickr.com/photos/183872512@N04/
-
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-07-2024, 10:57 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
Gr.eg McCl.@y
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 7,416
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey2296 View Post
I tend to look at things from a real estate perspective because that's the business I'm in.
If you offered me a property at a specific price and I agreed to that price but I didn't have to pay 1 cent to acquire the rights to that property but had the option to consummate the deal at a future date based on future value how is that not a win for me?
It's a win, when compared to a baseline of nothing. However, of course, that is not the actual situation.

When people bid in an auction with a 'respected' auction house, the implicit expectation is that it is an actual, legitimate auction and the cards will be sent to the winner. Instead of sending payment and getting the card, in most of these cases here a very rare and difficult card you can't just go get another of, they have been given an option on a contingency that probably won't transpire. This did not happen because of a last second problem, but because the auction house lied and continued to lie running a fake, fraudulent auction for items they do not have and cannot possibly deliver and they knew they could not deliver. What a bait and switch!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-07-2024, 11:17 PM
Casey2296's Avatar
Casey2296 Casey2296 is offline
Is Mudville so bad?
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: West Coast
Posts: 5,381
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
It's a win, when compared to a baseline of nothing. However, of course, that is not the actual situation.

When people bid in an auction with a 'respected' auction house, the implicit expectation is that it is an actual, legitimate auction and the cards will be sent to the winner. Instead of sending payment and getting the card, in most of these cases here a very rare and difficult card you can't just go get another of, they have been given an option on a contingency that probably won't transpire. This did not happen because of a last second problem, but because the auction house lied and continued to lie running a fake, fraudulent auction for items they do not have and cannot possibly deliver and they knew they could not deliver. What a bait and switch!
Except the reality is the cards were stolen so I was never getting the cards in your scenario, so the only realistic option was that I now own the card at no cost to me until delivery. I was never getting the card since it had been stolen but I am now the owner of the card at no cost to me until I have the option to purchase at strike, 3 years down the road if the card resurfaces and is worth 10K more I'm still the owner and is on ML to deliver it to me at strike. I don't see how I'm damaged in that scenario.

Furthermore I would love to acquire no cost options on multiple cards in an auction.
__________________
Phil Lewis


https://www.flickr.com/photos/183872512@N04/
-

Last edited by Casey2296; 05-07-2024 at 11:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-07-2024, 11:22 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
Gr.eg McCl.@y
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 7,416
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey2296 View Post
Except the reality is the cards were stolen so I was never getting the cards in your scenario, so the only realistic option was that I now own the card at no cost to me until delivery. I was never getting the card since it had been stolen but I am now the owner of the card at no cost to me until I have the option to purchase at strike, 3 years down the road if the card resurfaces and is worth 10K more I'm still the owner and is on ML to deliver it to me at strike. I don't see how I'm damaged in that scenario.
Yes they were never the getting cards, but they did not know that was the situation precisely because ML lied. I get this board really doesn't want to go with just, you know, telling the truth and being straight up instead of hosting a fake fraudulent auction. The winners are absolutely not the owner of the card in any way whatsoever no matter how many times you say that they are. They have an option on an extremely unlikely contingency. First stolen goods are generally not recovered, second even if they were, they will belong to the insurance company that people keep insisting is telling Memory Lane to host fake fraudulent auctions if the insurance company pays a claim. The 'winner' of the fraudulent auction gets an option to purchase if 1) the card is recovered AND 2) there was no insurance claim paid on. This is very unlikely.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-07-2024, 09:46 PM
Casey2296's Avatar
Casey2296 Casey2296 is offline
Is Mudville so bad?
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: West Coast
Posts: 5,381
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carter08 View Post
What do they own?
They own the cards they won in the auction and do not need to spend any money until they receive their cards, how is that not a collecting win?
__________________
Phil Lewis


https://www.flickr.com/photos/183872512@N04/
-
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-07-2024, 09:49 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,556
Default

I think what they own is more in the nature of an option subject to a contingency, I don't think they own the cards, they haven't paid and indeed they are not obligated to pay under any circumstances.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-07-2024 at 09:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-07-2024, 09:51 PM
Casey2296's Avatar
Casey2296 Casey2296 is offline
Is Mudville so bad?
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: West Coast
Posts: 5,381
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I think what they own is more in the nature of an option subject to a contingency, I don't think they own the cards, they haven't paid and indeed they are not obligated to pay under any circumstances.
Which gives the high bidder all the power, No?
__________________
Phil Lewis


https://www.flickr.com/photos/183872512@N04/
-
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-07-2024, 09:54 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,556
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey2296 View Post
Which gives the high bidder all the power, No?
It's a contingent contractual right, but realistically the contingency is unlikely to materialize.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-07-2024, 09:58 PM
Casey2296's Avatar
Casey2296 Casey2296 is offline
Is Mudville so bad?
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: West Coast
Posts: 5,381
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
It's a contingent contractual right, but realistically the contingency is unlikely to materialize.
Maybe, is there a chance these significant cards don't show up and end up in some Russian Oligarchs collection? Of course, but if they do show up the ownership provenance is ironclad.
__________________
Phil Lewis


https://www.flickr.com/photos/183872512@N04/
-
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-07-2024, 10:03 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,556
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey2296 View Post
Maybe, is there a chance these significant cards don't show up and end up in some Russian Oligarchs collection? Of course, but if they do show up the ownership provenance is ironclad.
If the thief is sophisticated, or passes the cards along to someone sophisticated, they'll show up in different slabs (or raw), perhaps slightly damaged to avoid detection, etc. etc. I would not say ironclad.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-07-2024 at 10:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-07-2024, 10:03 PM
Mark17's Avatar
Mark17 Mark17 is offline
M@rk S@tterstr0m
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,217
Default From a different angle...

So far this discussion has mainly been focused on establishing value, for insurance purposes and to make everybody whole (after it's determined where liability lies.)

Here's a hypothetical: Since the cards were mailed from out of state, and it's a large sum, suppose the FBI is, indeed, running the investigation. Maybe it was THEIR idea to run the auction as though nothing had happened.

If it wasn't public knowledge that cards were stolen, and more importantly, exactly which ones, maybe it was an FBI-initiated "sting" operation to try to identify unusual bidding behavior. For example, some person, or group, bidding up only the stolen cards, to inflate their perceived value. Or, hoping some bidder might somehow reveal knowledge unknown to the public, like asking unusual questions, etc.

IF this is generally what happened, then I would have to change my mind and say that ML did the right thing in working with law enforcement to solve the crime.

Another package was tampered with, but not taken. I wonder if fingerprints were obtained that could be cross-checked against employees or others with access to the package. Maybe this is the reason for their stated "optimism."

So... If it was done to establish value, I think that was wrong. If it was a key part of the investigation, under direction of law enforcement, I would unquestionably change my mind completely.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-07-2024, 10:28 PM
ThomasL ThomasL is offline
Tho.mas L Sau.nders
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 708
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark17 View Post
So far this discussion has mainly been focused on establishing value, for insurance purposes and to make everybody whole (after it's determined where liability lies.)

Here's a hypothetical: Since the cards were mailed from out of state, and it's a large sum, suppose the FBI is, indeed, running the investigation. Maybe it was THEIR idea to run the auction as though nothing had happened.

If it wasn't public knowledge that cards were stolen, and more importantly, exactly which ones, maybe it was an FBI-initiated "sting" operation to try to identify unusual bidding behavior. For example, some person, or group, bidding up only the stolen cards, to inflate their perceived value. Or, hoping some bidder might somehow reveal knowledge unknown to the public, like asking unusual questions, etc.

IF this is generally what happened, then I would have to change my mind and say that ML did the right thing in working with law enforcement to solve the crime.

Another package was tampered with, but not taken. I wonder if fingerprints were obtained that could be cross-checked against employees or others with access to the package. Maybe this is the reason for their stated "optimism."

So... If it was done to establish value, I think that was wrong. If it was a key part of the investigation, under direction of law enforcement, I would unquestionably change my mind completely.
+1
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-07-2024, 10:46 PM
Snowman's Avatar
Snowman Snowman is offline
Travis
Tra,vis Tr,ail
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 2,429
Default

If the insurance company does pull through and magically pays out on this rather dicey claim, then they would become the owners of the cards should they ever surface.
__________________
If it's not perfectly centered, I probably don't want it.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-08-2024, 08:13 AM
Seven's Avatar
Seven Seven is offline
James M.
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: New York
Posts: 1,622
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
If the insurance company does pull through and magically pays out on this rather dicey claim, then they would become the owners of the cards should they ever surface.
This is perhaps one of the most interesting things to me, but again this is assuming a lot. I have no dog in this race, I'm a lower level collector that makes less in a year than some of these cards go for in an auction. All that being said the only way I would think the Insurance company would pay out, correct me if I'm wrong, is if there was next to zero chance of the cards being recovered. If they suddenly are what exactly happens to them? I doubt the insurance company wants a bunch of old pre-war cards. Do they auction them off?
__________________
Successful Deals With:

charlietheexterminator, todeen, tonyo, Santo10fan
Bocabirdman (5x), 8thEastVB, JCMTiger, Rjackson44
Republicaninmass, 73toppsmann, quinnsryche (2x),
Donscards.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-08-2024, 08:04 AM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
Scott Russell
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,975
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I think what they own is more in the nature of an option subject to a contingency, I don't think they own the cards, they haven't paid and indeed they are not obligated to pay under any circumstances.
Unless terms and conditions state otherwise ownership changes hands at the fall of the hammer (literal or virtual) NOT at the time of payment. So by law, the winning bidders could easily be considered the owners.

Auction law is weird, the situation is weirder, lawyers could get rich off of this kind of weirdness.
__________________
Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible!

and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Memory Lane calvindog Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 5 08-13-2017 12:01 AM
Memory Lane - Uncut W516 Strip Cards T206Collector Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 0 12-20-2011 02:20 PM
Memory Lane YankeeCollector Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 12 08-22-2011 02:28 PM
You would think...(Memory Lane) mintacular Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 12 03-01-2011 11:15 AM
Memory Lane Selling Mint graded cards?? Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 7 11-08-2007 03:50 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:37 AM.


ebay GSB