Every slabbed card has a story, don't it?

[Peter_Spaeth]

[QUOTE



I can't wrap my head around your viewpoint here. Honestly, I can't comprehend how anyone could come to the conclusion that the Williams on the left is not altered but the one on the right is. Yet, it's your honest opinion. I see this as a rather arbitrary application of what it means for a card to be altered. Different strokes and all.[/QUOTE]

Maybe we should do a poll. I would bet a tiny percentage of people would think the Williams with a big stain is "altered."

[Natedog]

Interesting debate. Correct me if I'm wrong on this - perhaps I'm just misremembering: When I first got back into the hobby about 8 or so years ago, whenever a card was in an authentic altered slab or something to that effect, it was looked at as a Scarlett Letter and could have been had for considerably less than a raw unaltered or low grade example. Now I feel as though as long as it has good eye appeal, an altered version of a sought after vintage card is worth considerably more than a lower grade example. Again, I could be way off on this, but I feel like that's the way it's trending.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Natedog

Interesting debate. Correct me if I'm wrong on this - perhaps I'm just misremembering: When I first got back into the hobby about 8 or so years ago, whenever a card was in an authentic altered slab or something to that effect, it was looked at as a Scarlett Letter and could have been had for considerably less than a raw unaltered or low grade example. Now I feel as though as long as it has good eye appeal, an altered version of a sought after vintage card is worth considerably more than a lower grade example. Again, I could be way off on this, but I feel like that's the way it's trending.

That's an interesting conversation as well, but a little different than the issues we've been discussing here, in my opinion. I don't know that any cards have gotten AA grades because of soaking or corners being bent back.

I think AA cards are for the most part trimmed, re-colored or otherwise structurally altered.

I remember good looking AA cards used to sell above ugly PSA 1's and 2's, but I don't know if that has changed at all.

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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Natedog

Interesting debate. Correct me if I'm wrong on this - perhaps I'm just misremembering: When I first got back into the hobby about 8 or so years ago, whenever a card was in an authentic altered slab or something to that effect, it was looked at as a Scarlett Letter and could have been had for considerably less than a raw unaltered or low grade example. Now I feel as though as long as it has good eye appeal, an altered version of a sought after vintage card is worth considerably more than a lower grade example. Again, I could be way off on this, but I feel like that's the way it's trending.

AA cards have their own pricing spectrum. They can sell for less than a 1 or as much as a nice 3 or a low end 4. It just depends on what's wrong with the card and how it presents. They can also be cracked out and resubmitted for a second opinion. Graders get it wrong quite often. If you learn how to grade cards and detect alterations yourself, you can often find great deals on unaltered cards that mistakenly made their way into AA slabs.

[campyfan39]

The card on the left has been altered by your own definition. Something was done to it that changed its appearance and value.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

[QUOTE



I can't wrap my head around your viewpoint here. Honestly, I can't comprehend how anyone could come to the conclusion that the Williams on the left is not altered but the one on the right is. Yet, it's your honest opinion. I see this as a rather arbitrary application of what it means for a card to be altered. Different strokes and all.

Maybe we should do a poll. I would bet a tiny percentage of people would think the Williams with a big stain is "altered."[/QUOTE]

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by campyfan39

The card on the left has been altered by your own definition. Something was done to it that changed its appearance and value.

So every card that doesn't look like it did out of the pack is altered?

[campyfan39]

By the strict definition it is not in its original state.
I have only ever pressed corners with my finger and used to use spit to rub stuff off of cards haha. I haven't even used panty hose for wax stains. I hvae also not gotten a single card graded in my life.
Yet this debate has gotten silly.

My personal view is "altering" in the sense we speak about it in the card world is trimming, adding color, adding paper from a donor card.

Originally Posted by jayshum

So every card that doesn't look like it did out of the pack is altered?

[vintagerookies51]

Originally Posted by jayshum

So every card that doesn't look like it did out of the pack is altered?

There are two different definitions of altered here. For TPG, altered means trimming, adding color, rebuilding corners, etc.

Every card that hasn’t had those things done to it is unaltered, so both of the Ted Williams cards above. By the literal definition, the one with the stain is obviously more altered from its original state, and I see zero problem with getting rid of something like that to make it more like its original state.

As a buyer, I could not care less how much something was cleaned as long as it was not altered in the way described initially. Actually that’s not even accurate, since I love buying cards graded Authentic-Altered because they are still original and look nicer than most 4s but can be had for a fraction of the price

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by jayshum

So every card that doesn't look like it did out of the pack is altered?

If soaking half of a card in a cup of coffee doesn't meet your criteria, then what are we even talking about anymore?

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Snowman

If soaking half of a card in a cup of coffee doesn't meet your criteria, then what are we even talking about anymore?

Damage and alteration are not the same thing.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Damage and alteration are not the same thing.


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Only if you use the longstanding hobby meaning of "altered," which Travis is not using.

[Peter_Spaeth]

From PSA.

The term altered may mean that the card shows evidence of one or more of the following: trimming, recoloring, restoration, and/or cleaning.

Sorry, my contrarian friend, it's the one on the right that's altered, not the one on the left.

Now the cleaning may well be acceptable depending on how it was done, but that's another issue.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by campyfan39

Maybe we should do a poll. I would bet a tiny percentage of people would think the Williams with a big stain is "altered."

It'd be interesting to run a poll that allowed for more than a single selection. The poll could keep a tally of all participants and a list of items considered "card doctoring". The percentage of each would be tracked.

What's doctoring or would be accepted? Soaking? Perhaps the poll should include soaking with only water or soaking with more than water.

What would the polling items be? Trimming , adding color, adding material for fixing holes/corners, crease removal, what else?

I just don't know how to set up such a poll.