Helmar cards

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

You're lying because you are making a blatantly false claim that any reasonable person would know is false. The cards are absolutely not meant to deceive. Look at their site and listings for 5 seconds. There is no chicanery or dishonesty. Even a complete moron can separate these in 1 second from 'real' cards. They make no secret whatsoever they are modern creations, in fact they do the opposite of pretend they are period.

They don't even brew beer; it's a fake brand for a design. Clue #1,000 that's it is not from 1910? Duh.

This is not difficult to figure out. As always we have a couple people bullshitting with a clearly false narrative

Yes but you are never wrong.

[Republicaninmass]

Nothing is "rare" or "collectible" about a laser printed art card.

Why use the name Helmar? They are not trying to pivot off the tobacco name?




Asking for a fiend...(sic)


Atrempt at Fraud plain and simple.


I don't have to look at their website and claims, just the product and how it's marketed

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Yes but you are never wrong.

Feel free to point out any claim to fact that is false. Go ahead.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Nothing is "rare" or "collectible" about a laser printed art card.

Why use the name Helmar? They are not trying to pivot off the tobacco name?




Asking for a fiend...(sic)


Atrempt at Fraud plain and simple.


I don't have to look at their website and claims, just the product and how it's marketed

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

What? What does this have to do with the claim that the maker of these cards is intending to deceive and defraud people?

Each card is generally scarce in that there are only a handful or so, as I understand it. Collectible? Seems that they are, in fact, collectible as they sell of pretty strong prices a lot of the time. I don't collect them, they aren't my thing, but again there is an actual reality in the world outside of what I like and don't like, and my opinions do not change definable reality.

Considering they are putting ads for an imaginary Helmar Brewing product on the back, I'd say obviously not. You won't look at their claims or website, as you slander them with false claims of defrauding people, of course.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Feel free to point out any claim to fact that is false. Go ahead.

I never said anything was false. I do absolutely love how you carefully pick what to answer and what to completely ignore in your responses.

[Republicaninmass]

Put the pipe down dude. I think it is Time for your nap

Anyone can waste their money however they like.


Deceiving people using a 100 year old tobacco name for 100 year old baseball players made weekly with limited runs and no date. Claiming they are using a "notable name" since helmer brewing won an award once and call it art.

Unlicensed use of players and copying card designs. Maybe they are public domain, maybe it's illegal use. I'm sure st least ONE.person ONCE thought these were vintage

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

[Republicaninmass]

OK did 1 second of research


This is being sold as a "t206"


No date of production listed anywhere

But it ain't a t206, just in the style of one.

Good night

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

[Lucas00]

I've never seen a complaint about somebody buying one. Just people complaining about why they wouldn't. Two opposite camps like everything else in the world. And yes I understand both sides, (I know that's rare)

[RCMcKenzie]

The tea stains rest their case.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

OK did 1 second of research


This is being sold as a "t206"


No date of production listed anywhere

But it ain't a t206, just in the style of one.

Good night

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

Jesus Christ. So the issuer of the cards is intentionally making their cards to deceive if someone sells a card on eBay without stating the year of production.

By this logic, every single maker of cards ever is intentionally deceiving people. Can we just think for 5 seconds before making ridiculous claims?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I never said anything was false. I do absolutely love how you carefully pick what to answer and what to completely ignore in your responses.

Okay, if there's nothing false how am I wrong? I love how you make wild claims and can never defend them or come anywhere near an ascertainable fact.

[Ray Van]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

They don't even brew beer, it's made up to sell Laser printed cards.

I don't want to get sucked into the debate too deeply as I see both sides (though I am firmly in the pro-Helmar camp), however I felt the need to clarify that yes they used to brew beer back in the early 2000's out of Michigan. They started as a beer and potato chip company and included cards in the packages of chips and used baseball images on the beer.

[Jay Wolt]

& besides Beer, they made snacks too!
Here's an unopened bag that's on ebay (not mine)

[jingram058]

This might provide some clarification:

"Since 2005, Helmar Brewing Co., headquartered in the Detroit, Michigan area, has been owned by Charles Mandel. Helmar is an old brand name from the early 1900s. Mandel purchased the rights to the name, and for the past 18 years has included limited-production cards as premiums with purchases of micro-brew beer, potato chips, and snack items. A staff of 7 produces the cards, including Mandel himself, and 5 artists. The cards are produced using vintage printing, ink and art techniques. They are sought after by modern collectors due to their high-quality, and command high resale value.

Banty Red Tobacco & Ale Co., operating out of Grayslake, Illinois, is under the ownership of Phil Apostle, a former collector turned manufacturer. Apostle sold a fortune in baseball cards and memorabilia in order to fulfill his dream of producing his own cards. After selling his own collection, he acquired an extensive collection of photographic negatives of ballplayers from the "golden era" of baseball. These cards are made by hand in very limited numbers, most only 1 or 2 cards each. With photographic imagery not found on any other cards, and in high quality, they sell immediately upon issue, often in the hundreds of dollars."

There is no intent to deceive, at least as far a card production is concerned, even though they may be labeled as t206 or whatever; that just refers to the size of the cards for reference and comparison purposes to genuine vintage cards. Anyone with any knowledge of vintage cards will know that these are cards have never before been issued before. The ageing, rounded corners, and scuff marks are all in the spirit of making them look and feel old. But they are what they are. They fill a niche in the hobby; a way to get some old-looking cards without necessarily going to the poor house. I don't believe I have ever seen a graded example of even one of these cards. That's not what they are about, either. They are not for everyone. But if you are into old-time baseball, they can be quite interesting.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Ray Van

I don't want to get sucked into the debate too deeply as I see both sides (though I am firmly in the pro-Helmar camp), however I felt the need to clarify that yes they used to brew beer back in the early 2000's out of Michigan. They started as a beer and potato chip company and included cards in the packages of chips and used baseball images on the beer.

If those are yours feel free to look at them, they are created by Michigan Brewing Company, a company since out of business that did small subcontracted runs of decorative label items. Somewhat like the days of Billy beer.

Helmar was never a brewer, nor need they have much distribution if any in my knowledge. I live a couple miles from the home Helmar used as their business address and can say I never once saw any of these products. This is why you will never see either with a price tag. They were extremely limited marketing items to build the brand of cards, not the other way around.

It is fine to like them, but disingenuous to represent as true history that this was the original distribution method. This has been discussed over the years very early on.

[JustinD]

I think also some of the not made to deceive folks are relying a ton on current day (which I am happy and excepting of when dated) and not the numerous early Helmar designs and listing practices like the legendary Cap Anson Padlock threads that fooled quite a few on this site as I remember...

[Phil68]

While I cannot speak for anyone else, in 10 years of sales I, personally, have had 2 people purchase cards that they thought were vintage. Both received immadiate refunds and were novice collectors that thought they could purchase a "1922" Rogers Hornsby, for example, for 23.00.
To answer the copyrights, I own or license my images and many are simply out of copyright. To date, more than two dozen families of players have responded with joy and many receive free copies. Some have even provided signatures for use on my cards that are seemingly impossible to find.
My cards are original paintings or colorized images--depending on the era and vibe I am trying to evoke.
Starting in 2022, copyrights and dates are listed on the reverses of most cards. Some just look terrible with the type on the reverse, so I use out of copyright reverses or make them entirely different artwork.
Some people love art cards, some hate them. Just like I won't consider buying any Mickey Mantle cards after 1961...to me, he looks bloated and on the decline. It's personal taste. No deception is ever intended.
Believe me on this; if I wanted to be deceptive, I could make a card that nobody could tell the difference. Frankly, simply making a countefeit card would be much easier than what I do. I have no desire to spend my time doing that because my motivation has always been "something new and interesting".
A miniscule amount of collectors can afford ANY Mantle or Ruth card. They can afford mine and enjoy them. It's collecting in it's pure form.
Remember, they cards we cherish are, at the end of the day, ephemera.
I also would like to note that all substrates we use in assembly are vintage and pre-date 1956.
I will speak for Charles Mandel on this; that man has NEVER tried to deceive anyone. He is a pure art guy. He's passionate about his craft. We love what we do and are grateful enough people like it that we can afford to do it.

Finally, I DO brew my own beer! Lol. All of the Beers and Ales we refer to on our cards actually exist. Some don't taste too good, but I'm learning. My Summer Brew wound up tasting like Cherry Wheat and the Ruby Ale is almost too strong, Lol.

[Phil68]

Justin, two things....I CAN see where a collector could be accidentally fooled by that Cap Anson. Not intentional. We learn as we go. Because such a thing never existed, I wouldn't know enough unless it was stated in the listing. I read listings--some don't.
Either way--it's gorgeous.
Two, I loved Lance Parrish! I have a modest collection of Parrish items. Very cool that you admire him, too.

[jingram058]

I have a small binder of both Banty Red and Helmar cards. I like them. And like it or not, they have a following.

[CobbSpikedMe]

I'm always on the lookout for any Jersey City Skeeters Helmar cards like these. If anyone has any available, please let me know. I need them for my Jersey City Skeeters team collection. Thanks guys!




.