Do PSA slabs *really* sell for more than SGC?

[Gorditadogg]

Anybody can look at a card and see if it is centered. There is no reason to have centering as a factor in deciding a card's grade. Other than the people who say they only collect cards with no qualifiers, what use is it for a grader to say a card is off-center or extra well-centered. Any straight-on pic can tell you that.

I would rather have a well-centered 6 than a 70/30 7, but if SGC is going to bump a card with 6 corners to a 7 because it is 50/50 centered, then that doesn't help me, it just confuses the grade more. Now I have to decide whether it is a bumped up 6 or a true 7.




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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Anybody can look at a card and see if it is centered. There is no reason to have centering as a factor in deciding a card's grade. Other than the people who say they only collect cards with no qualifiers, what use is it for a grader to say a card is off-center or extra well-centered. Any straight-on pic can tell you that.

I would rather have a well-centered 6 than a 70/30 7, but if SGC is going to bump a card with 6 corners to a 7 because it is 50/50 centered, then that doesn't help me, it just confuses the grade more. Now I have to decide whether it is a bumped up 6 or a true 7.




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It's funny. Pre Forman, SGC barely looked at centering, and people by and large hated them for it.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's funny. Pre Forman, SGC barely looked at centering, and people by and large hated them for it.

People like to complain about stuff. And most people don't know what they want, they just want something different.

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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Anybody can look at a card and see if it is centered. There is no reason to have centering as a factor in deciding a card's grade. Other than the people who say they only collect cards with no qualifiers, what use is it for a grader to say a card is off-center or extra well-centered. Any straight-on pic can tell you that.

I would rather have a well-centered 6 than a 70/30 7, but if SGC is going to bump a card with 6 corners to a 7 because it is 50/50 centered, then that doesn't help me, it just confuses the grade more. Now I have to decide whether it is a bumped up 6 or a true 7.

The same is true of most flaws though. Anyone can see excess print lines, poor registration, lack of color depth, wax stains, rounded corners, etc. Yet these all come into play in the grading process. I don't see why centering should be any different, especially when it is hands down the number one factor that collectors care most about. It shows you how well the card was printed/cut at the factory.

The whole point of having a ranking system in the grading process is to establish a hierarchy for each card's desirability based on it's appearance. The TPGs have largely failed us in this regard. Especially with respect to the attention paid to corners. As a specific example, the difference in the corner standards between a PSA 6 and a PSA 7 today, with their newly established goalposts, is entirely imaginary. What makes a PSA 6 a better card than a PSA 7 has absolutely nothing to do with the corners whatsoever, yet PSA wants to pretend that it does. Eye-appeal matters to everyone and that should be reflected in a card's grade.

Exactly how to evaluate eye appeal could be debated, but at least SGC makes honest attempts to do this. I probably get more half-grades with my PC cards at SGC than I do full grades because of it. And I almost never get half grades at PSA, and when I do encounter them on the marketplace, they're usually OC cards with horrible eye appeal.

Should SGC give full 1 point grade bumps for cards with 50/50 centering and otherwise perfect eye-appeal for the grade level? I don't know. And I'm not sure they'd agree with my claim that I think they sometimes do, but I'm OK with it. A dead-centered "VG" card with no creases and great color & registration with just some honest corner wear should (and will) absolutely outsell a "VG-EX" card with a crease, 80/20 centering, a print line, and square corners. The grading process should reflect that.

The fact that 3s regularly outsell 4s, and sometimes even 4s outsell 6s in the same auctions side-by-side, should be an embarrassment to the TPGs. But it's probably too late to change things now (though that clearly hasn't stopped them from moving the goalposts multiple times already).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Beckett tried to get away from the overweight given to corners, and for a while it was successful, but it seems to be falling of the TPG cliff.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Snowman

The same is true of most flaws though. Anyone can see excess print lines, poor registration, lack of color depth, wax stains, rounded corners, etc. Yet these all come into play in the grading process. I don't see why centering should be any different, especially when it is hands down the number one factor that collectors care most about. It shows you how well the card was printed/cut at the factory.

The whole point of having a ranking system in the grading process is to establish a hierarchy for each card's desirability based on it's appearance. The TPGs have largely failed us in this regard. Especially with respect to the attention paid to corners. As a specific example, the difference in the corner standards between a PSA 6 and a PSA 7 today, with their newly established goalposts, is entirely imaginary. What makes a PSA 6 a better card than a PSA 7 has absolutely nothing to do with the corners whatsoever, yet PSA wants to pretend that it does. Eye-appeal matters to everyone and that should be reflected in a card's grade.

Exactly how to evaluate eye appeal could be debated, but at least SGC makes honest attempts to do this. I probably get more half-grades with my PC cards at SGC than I do full grades because of it. And I almost never get half grades at PSA, and when I do encounter them on the marketplace, they're usually OC cards with horrible eye appeal.

Should SGC give full 1 point grade bumps for cards with 50/50 centering and otherwise perfect eye-appeal for the grade level? I don't know. And I'm not sure they'd agree with my claim that I think they sometimes do, but I'm OK with it. A dead-centered "VG" card with no creases and great color & registration with just some honest corner wear should (and will) absolutely outsell a "VG-EX" card with a crease, 80/20 centering, a print line, and square corners. The grading process should reflect that.

The fact that 3s regularly outsell 4s, and sometimes even 4s outsell 6s in the same auctions side-by-side, should be an embarrassment to the TPGs. But it's probably too late to change things now (though that clearly hasn't stopped them from moving the goalposts multiple times already).

Cards don't get bonus points for not having wax stains or print lines. The idea is to start at 10 and then subtract for flaws.

I personally don't think the grading process should be an eye appeal measurement, rather it should be a technical review of the card. It definitely should not be an estimate of the market value.

A 50/50 card with good color and clear focus can sell for double the average price for the grade. And that's the way it should be. We don't need SGC bumping up high eye-appeal cards to the next grade to try and estimate their market value. That would be a mess.



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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Cards don't get bonus points for not having wax stains or print lines. The idea is to start at 10 and then subtract for flaws.

I personally don't think the grading process should be an eye appeal measurement, rather it should be a technical review of the card. It definitely should not be an estimate of the market value.

A 50/50 card with good color and clear focus can sell for double the average price for the grade. And that's the way it should be. We don't need SGC bumping up high eye-appeal cards to the next grade to try and estimate their market value. That would be a mess.



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I see what you're saying. That makes sense. I do like their implemention of half grades though too distinguish strong eye appeal for the grade from average to below average. Basically, they're saying the card is technically a 4, but looks better than most other 4s, so they'll give it a 4.5. I think I'm with you though in that maybe they shouldn't say the card is technically a 4, but the eye appeal is so superior that they'll bump it all the way to a 5 instead of a 4.5 for those super nice 4s.

That said, I should reiterate that I don't know if they are in fact doing this. I just suspect it sometimes.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I see what you're saying. That makes sense. I do like their implemention of half grades though too distinguish strong eye appeal for the grade from average to below average. Basically, they're saying the card is technically a 4, but looks better than most other 4s, so they'll give it a 4.5. I think I'm with you though in that maybe they shouldn't say the card is technically a 4, but the eye appeal is so superior that they'll bump it all the way to a 5 instead of a 4.5 for those super nice 4s.

That said, I should reiterate that I don't know if they are in fact doing this. I just suspect it sometimes.

I've heard that too. If a grader really wants to move the card up to the next grade but can't because of a specific defect, he gives it a half-grade bump. Those .5 cards can be very nice.

[JohnP0621]

Do you have any examples of the reverse. Where SGC graded a card lower than PSA ?

John P

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by JohnP0621

Do you have any examples of the reverse. Where SGC graded a card lower than PSA ?

John P

I have a few ultra modern cards that bumped from an SGC 9 or 9.5 to a PSA 10. And that 1970 Topps Hank Aaron I posted above was originally an SGC 7, which PSA graded as a 5 the first time, then they graded it as an 8 the second time.

[icurnmedic]

Originally Posted by JohnP0621

Do you have any examples of the reverse. Where SGC graded a card lower than PSA ?

John P

I have a T206 Cobb that was purchased in a SGC 1.5, cracked (not by me) and sent to PSA and came back as a 2.5 which for the record I believe is probably accurate. Purchased it here around 3 years ago.

Thomas

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Anybody can look at a card and see if it is centered. There is no reason to have centering as a factor in deciding a card's grade.

I disagree 110%. A nicely centered card with soft corners is much more appealing that an off-centered card with sharp corners. I think centering is extremely important and I'd venture to say that most would agree.

[dealme]

Originally Posted by Vintagedeputy

I disagree 110%. A nicely centered card with soft corners is much more appealing that an off-centered card with sharp corners. I think centering is extremely important and I'd venture to say that most would agree.

I may be in the minority, but I prioritize corners over centering. That being the case, it only makes sense that a high grade card would have phenomenal centering. However, it seems to my that centering should be able to be measured objectively, whereas corners and registration cannot be.


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[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by dealme

I may be in the minority, but I prioritize corners over centering. That being the case, it only makes sense that a high grade card would have phenomenal centering. However, it seems to my that centering should be able to be measured objectively, whereas corners and registration cannot be.

Here's how I tend to look at it. A pack fresh card should in theory be a 10 coming out of the pack, 50/50 centering, with razor sharp corners. With modern production techniques, every single new card should in theory be a 10 (from production) unless made a 9 or 8 or ? by improper handling by the customer.

Vintage cards didn't have the same quality control, so you could have a pack fresh, 70/30 card that has razor sharp corners for the next 50 years because it was handled and stored correctly by the buyer. It'll never be a 10 though because it left the factory in less than perfect condition. Proper centering is a product of production. Sharp corners are a product of customer handling and storage. To me, centering is more important with vintage because it wasn't always a guarantee.