The Card Altering Services Saga Continues

[BeanTown]

Just got this in my package from a rare eBay purchase. Couldn’t fraudulent sellers purposely mis categorize their listing to avoid the authentication process.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

Just got this in my package from a rare eBay purchase. Couldn’t fraudulent sellers purposely mis categorize their listing to avoid the authentication process.

It's become a fairly common practice already for the scammers, these things just take them a few months to figure out. Keywords in the listing titles cull it out easily - "set", "pack", "box", or "lot" are examples. You can see that issue as people commonly used "set break", "base set", or "pack fresh", they were kicked out of the program. They supposedly fixed that recently if the phrase "set break" is used, but not sure. "Set" will still kick it on it's own.

No lots, sets, or unopened packs/boxes are in the program, so many scammers will sell a fake Ruth with some trash like a free 1983 Topps common to slide it under the lot category and get the fake to the buyer.

I would feel bad about posting this info, but they all know this already. The site is full of them.

You must look for the blue check and eBay statement (not seller statement) that it is 'Authenticity Guaranteed" to trust it is in the program.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by JustinD

It's become a fairly common practice already for the scammers, these things just take them a few months to figure out. Keywords in the listing titles cull it out easily - "set", "pack", "box", or "lot" are examples. You can see that issue as people commonly used "set break", "base set", or "pack fresh", they were kicked out of the program. They supposedly fixed that recently if the phrase "set break" is used, but not sure. "Set" will still kick it on it's own.

No lots, sets, or unopened packs/boxes are in the program, so many scammers will sell a fake Ruth with some trash like a free 1983 Topps common to slide it under the lot category and get the fake to the buyer.

I would feel bad about posting this info, but they all know this already. The site is full of them.

You must look for the blue check and eBay statement (not seller statement) that it is 'Authenticity Guaranteed" to trust it is in the program.

For every program that comes out that guarantee's the authenticity of something, there will be a person or people that find a way around it. Even the grading companies are not infallible, fakes have been slabbed before whether they be cards or autographs. The most important thing we can do is educate ourselves on what we are buying, and ask people that are experienced in certain areas for their opinion and knowledge.

Back to the topic at hand. I have purchased cards that were slabbed altered before. If you want to alter a card, that is your prerogative, it shouldn't get judged by the same standards a non altered card does. The inherent problem is the grading companies IMO. Alteration has been around for quite some time, but collectors treating the grade like it is gospel, are an issue, which I feel like that is what a portion of the higher end hobby has become. And if that grade is influenced by some sort of altering of the card, yet still receives a number grade, I have an issue with that.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Seven

Back to the topic at hand. I have purchased cards that were slabbed altered before. If you want to alter a card, that is your prerogative, it shouldn't get judged by the same standards a non altered card does. The inherent problem is the grading companies IMO. Alteration has been around for quite some time, but collectors treating the grade like it is gospel, are an issue, which I feel like that is what a portion of the higher end hobby has become. And if that grade is influenced by some sort of altering of the card, yet still receives a number grade, I have an issue with that.

Beautiful statement, I have several slabbed altered cards as well. I don't mind a bit to get a card at a discount that is a nice display but clearly designated. I also don't mind the savings I get for that purchase, it's all an honest transaction.

I would never remove those cards from the slabs to avoid fraud, nor play the submitting game until someone missed it. A do not want a numerical grade for them in the least, they are altered and the clarity to me is just dandy. Sometimes we shop within our budget and I don't mind having a better looking card that is scarlet lettered. That "A" isn't going to kill me, and I know when I sell there will not be bad karma or an angry buyer down the road who feels misled.

[nwobhm]

I’m imagining a TPG that doesn’t give a # but instead gives real usable information:

Corners = 90°
Length = 3.52”
Width = 2.51”
Authentic = Yes
Centering = 55/45
Color Added = No
Moisture Content = 5%

That would surely clear out a lot of trimmed, soaked & colored cards.

[steve B]

Lots to get into here.

The idea that many of our collectibles have an expiration date of sorts is very accurate. Anything printed on wood fiber based paper will eventually become too brittle to handle from the acid breaking down the fibers.

There are already "standards" for paper conservation. Followed by most conservators and archives.

A few of our cards may be doomed altogether. Many of my Collectors edge cards have already yellowed noticeably, and they're "only" 30 years old. (Damn I'm getting old)


Taking a stance based on what's done in other hobbies might be good. None will really work in all cases.

Paintings are an interesting example. The valuable ones are often cleaned and a professional has a lengthy process, removing old varnish and accumulated filth, carefully painting in areas where the original paint has been lost, and revarnishing with one that won't yellow - or won't yellow as quickly.
What's rarely mentioned is that the professional does all those things with methods that don't cause further damage, and with materials that can be removed. So the restoration is entirely reversible.

Most silver coins you see that are shiny have been cleaned, not with abrasives like a pencil eraser or toothpaste..., but with a fluid tarnish remover. A couple things some may find interesting
The tarnish can be partly removed is it's really bad. This takes some skill and attention. It may also in extreme cases be difficult to fully remove. (I did it a few times for a dealer whose shop I hung out at, in trade for stamps and coins. I also did a couple of my own, one rare but so covered in crud you almost couldn't tell. It only came back to an average level of tarnish, and since it only is G-VG or so, would be inpropper to go further. )

Many of the wonderfuly "toned" (creatively tarnished) silver coins were never that way until recently. Putting a cleaned coin in the right envelope maybe with some of the right chemicals generates a beautiful rainbow tarnish that's considered very desirable. from the time I started collecting coins as a kid until the 90's when I sort of stopped I saw maybe two coins with that toning.
Now they're somewhat common.


I think we all draw the line at different places, I'm ok with light surface cleaning, and would be ok with deacidification on most cards from roughly the 1920's to 1991.
Removing creases? No. I'm sure it can be done, and perhaps done permanently. But it's just going too far. I very much doubt that surface wrinkles and creases can be caused by humidity changes. Out of tens of thousands of cards I have between the 1880's and last year, subject to regualr seasonal humidity changes, you'd think at least one would have had that happen. Nope.

Pushing a corner back down?
Not sure what is meant.
A completely bent corner getting flattened a bit? Ok, if it creased, it should be detectable anyway.
Using a roller to hide that it ever happened? No.

Same for a corner where it's become layered and one layer has gotten folded over.

But as we've seen, PSA themselves will just fold it back and reslab... leaving it with even a high grade. Not something I agree with in any way.


I really don't like hearing people day it's ok or that nobody cares anymore and we should all just get on the altering bandwagon.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

I’m imagining a TPG that doesn’t give a # but instead gives real usable information:

Corners = 90°
Length = 3.52”
Width = 2.51”
Authentic = Yes
Centering = 55/45
Color Added = No
Moisture Content = 5%

That would surely clear out a lot of trimmed, soaked & colored cards.

I'm with you here. Would be great if creases, wrinkles, tears, paper loss, etc. were all noted as well. Although moisture content wouldn't tell you anything about whether a card has been soaked before or not, it'll just tell you the relative humidity of where it was/is stored, as cards dry out very fast. But every card should come with the grading report viewable online when you look up the cert number. I believe TAG grading does this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

There is no question that alteration is and always has been a spectrum, and different people draw the line in different places. I think, like it or not, Travis is right that as an overall matter, that line has moved to a more tolerant place as cards increasingly get commoditized and a new generation has a different outlook.