Thoughts on this 1925 Gehrig

[bcbgcbrcb]

Lots of good points, mostly all valid IMHO. I also don't mind seeing that even the 6-figure, high-end cards are not immune to the current state of the hobby/economy. Why shouldn't those with deep pockets take it on the chin as often as those of us common folk who could never afford to play in that arena and have sure seen plenty of our cards dropping throughout 2021 and continuing even more so throughout 2022. As everone is quick to note though, still well ahead of the game pre-2020, assuming that you already owned the cards at that time.

[oldjudge]

Personally, I think the points made above are valid. However, I believe Gehrig cards were overpriced and are now coming back to earth. In my mind Gehrig was only very slightly better than Foxx. There is no reason other than his untimely death that there should be such a large price discrepancy between their cards.

[sb1]

Jay, I think the value is based on popularity only, perhaps due to the illness/death, not due to his on-field performance.

Think of the All-time Yankees by popularity and he easily makes the top 5, where in that order is subject to debate. Obviously, most would pick Ruth at #1 and then you are left with Gehrig, DiMaggio and Mantle to sort out the order. I am not even sure who I would put in the 5th spot, probably Jeter, but Berra would also be in the mix.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Personally, I think the points made above are valid. However, I believe Gehrig cards were overpriced and are now coming back to earth. In my mind Gehrig was only very slightly better than Foxx. There is no reason other than his untimely death that there should be such a large price discrepancy between their cards.

Price and broad appeal of cards has only part to do with numbers. And in some cases very little. Jackie Robinson prime example. Right now Joe Burrow cards are outselling Terry Bradshaw by 159x. And Zion is probably still outselling Willie Reed. And some Yankee prospect in AA is outselling Mike Schmidt and Gary Carter out together. Times 100.

Gehrig was an amazing player. Best yankeee 1B of all time. But clearly his appeal goes far beyond that.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

And some Yankee prospect in AA is outselling Mike Schmidt and Gary Carter out together. Times 100

It’s nice to see people are placing a premium on sobriety….

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

It’s nice to see people are placing a premium on sobriety….

I see what you did there!


I feel Gerhig is still very underrated, However the exhibit frenzy does nothing for me. Traditionally the pariahs of the hobby are now the hottest things on the planet?

Often overlooked for many decades, they certainly had more upside, but nothing has changed in the last 50 years to make them more desirable. Maybe more people know about them now, but they vastly undersold and historically were not as desirable as the old gum/candy cards. This is boots on the ground fact from the early 90s! Dating myself here I know

The 33 world wide gum cards have much more appeal IMO..that's opinion for those keep tally marks

[Touch'EmAll]

In 1932, Foxx was credited with 58 HRs. Foxx actually did hit 2 more additional HRs in rain shortened games that were then erased from the record books altogether. That would have tied him with Ruth at 60.

Now factor in a special screen that was set up above the regular outfield wall. It has been estimated that Foxx had actually lost as many as 12 HRs in total. Foxx could have ended the season with as many as 70 HRs.

Foxx, not Ruth, would have been the owner of one of the most famous and sacred record in all of sports. What would have been the perception of Foxx if he wasn't so unlucky.

[Touch'EmAll]

At this point, gotta show cards ...

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

Foxx, not Ruth, would have been the owner of one of the most famous and sacred record in all of sports.

But he’s not…

Gehrig beats Foxx in all intangibles - he played with Ruth, on America’s baseball team, won 6 championships (someone said), held the record for most consecutive games and was called the Iron Horse (nickname), was a handsome all American boy, and has a disease named after him.

Foxx was an amazing player. But he was a drunk with zero post-baseball accolades; best thing he did was sort of get portrait by Tom Hanks in League of their own.

The biggest stars are known for more than baseball.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

In 1932, Foxx was credited with 58 HRs. Foxx actually did hit 2 more additional HRs in rain shortened games that were then erased from the record books altogether. That would have tied him with Ruth at 60.

Now factor in a special screen that was set up above the regular outfield wall. It has been estimated that Foxx had actually lost as many as 12 HRs in total. Foxx could have ended the season with as many as 70 HRs.

Foxx, not Ruth, would have been the owner of one of the most famous and sacred record in all of sports. What would have been the perception of Foxx if he wasn't so unlucky.

I believe what you say is true. My dad, who was born in 1918 and an intense fan, idolized Ruth, Gehrig and Foxx. I believe the three of them were his three favorite players, all time. My dad lived into the modern era, and I know he thought Gehrig and Foxx the two greatest first basemen, especially Gehrig, being handicapped by being left handed. That is very unnatural for a first baseman. He thought Ruth the greatest single player. When someone would say Ruth was obese, he would say they were only looking at photos or newsreel films at the end of his career or after he quit playing. Dad always said Ruth played spectacularly and lived spectacularly, and it caught up with him. He was quite right.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Personally, I think the points made above are valid. However, I believe Gehrig cards were overpriced and are now coming back to earth. In my mind Gehrig was only very slightly better than Foxx. There is no reason other than his untimely death that there should be such a large price discrepancy between their cards.

Gehrig, the guy who would've been a lock for 600 Home Runs and 3000 hits, if he didn't contract ALS was not just "slightly better" than Foxx.

To quote Joe Posnaski

"But Gehrig’s OPS of 1.080 is third all-time, behind only Ruth and Williams. He hit .340/.447/.632, walked about twice as much as he struck out and led the league at different times in doubles, triples and home runs. His 185 RBIs in 1931 is an American League record, and his 167 runs scored in 1936 is second only to Ruth’s 1921 season, a number even more incredible when you realize Ruth wasn’t on that 1936 team.

At one point or another, Gehrig led the league in just about everything: runs, hits, doubles, triples, home runs, RBIs, walks, batting average, on-base percentage, slugging percentage and total bases."

He walked more than Foxx, he struck out less than Foxx, He eclipses Foxx in every statistical category other than Home Runs, despite playing 150 games less than him. His Weighted Runs Created +, the statistic that is era and park adjusted, Ranks him as the third greatest offensive force in all of Baseball history behind Ruth and Williams.

Not to mention the consecutive games streak, or the fact that he was a 7 Time World Champion.

The entire market was inflated. Not just Lou.

[Snapolit1]

+1000

Originally Posted by seven

gehrig, the guy who would've been a lock for 600 home runs and 3000 hits, if he didn't contract als was not just "slightly better" than foxx.

To quote joe posnaski

"but gehrig’s ops of 1.080 is third all-time, behind only ruth and williams. He hit .340/.447/.632, walked about twice as much as he struck out and led the league at different times in doubles, triples and home runs. His 185 rbis in 1931 is an american league record, and his 167 runs scored in 1936 is second only to ruth’s 1921 season, a number even more incredible when you realize ruth wasn’t on that 1936 team.

At one point or another, gehrig led the league in just about everything: Runs, hits, doubles, triples, home runs, rbis, walks, batting average, on-base percentage, slugging percentage and total bases."

he walked more than foxx, he struck out less than foxx, he eclipses foxx in every statistical category other than home runs, despite playing 150 games less than him. His weighted runs created +, the statistic that is era and park adjusted, ranks him as the third greatest offensive force in all of baseball history behind ruth and williams.

Not to mention the consecutive games streak, or the fact that he was a 7 time world champion.

The entire market was inflated. Not just lou.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Personally, I think the points made above are valid. However, I believe Gehrig cards were overpriced and are now coming back to earth. In my mind Gehrig was only very slightly better than Foxx. There is no reason other than his untimely death that there should be such a large price discrepancy between their cards.

Jay - Lou Gehrig is the third greatest hitter in baseball history behind Williams & Ruth, and that counts for an awful lot. Regarding the Foxx comparison, Gehrig’s lifetime batting average is 15 points higher than Foxx (.340 vs. .325) as well as his OPS being 0.41 higher (1.076 vs. 1.035). Over 16/17 years, that’s a significant advantage. Their lifetime homers & RBIs are extremely close). Add in his unfathomable 2,130 consecutive game streak, 6 world championships (not counting 1939), and the fact his career was suddenly cut short while he was still performing at a world class level (he would have hit over 600 homers and knocked in 2,400+ runs), and Gehrig easily gets the nod. Interestingly enough, most people fail to realize that in 1938 (having just turned 35 on 6/13/38), Gehrig was on his way to another one of his incredible campaigns. In early to mid-August, he inexplicably hit a wall, slumping badly including the Fall Classic where he managed only 4 meager singles. While still managing to hit 29 dingers and bat in 114 runs, he would have belted approx. 40 homers and posted 140+ RBIs. No one knew the ill effects of ALS was the reason for his awful final 2-month slump, and the rest is history. Gehrig bests Foxx and is right on the heels of Williams & Ruth. I do believe Foxx is one of the 3 greatest right-handed hitters along with Hornsby & Aaron (Mays & Pujols get honorable mention). Like Hornsby, Double X’s cards are significantly undervalued.

[FrankWakefield]

Buy the card, not the player?

Let's get back to that card. Are you able to hit that card with a black light?

I understand that it's in a holder, professionally graded. All of those corners look uniformly rounded. That uniformity is a bit of a flag for me. I'd want to illuminate it with uv light and see if it fluoresces.

So that is foremost among my "thoughts about that 1925 Gehrig"

[oldjudge]

Joe—I think the comparison is a lot closer than you think. Foxx had 133 more ABs for his career than Gehrig but hit 41 more HRs. He won three MVPs vs Gehrig’s two, he was a better fielder. Gehrig had a slightly higher batting average and more RBI’s, but he played for a lot better team. I agree Gehrig was better but it was pretty close. If Foxx was a Yankee and Gehrig was an Athletic the comparison would probably flip in Fox’s favor.
I was reading a list that was put together in 1994 of the greatest hitters of all time. Here it is:

10. Willie Mays
9. Hank Aaron
8. Joe Jackson
7. Stan Musial
6. Ty Cobb
5. Joe DiMaggio
4. Rogers Hornsby
3. Jimmie Foxx
2. Lou Gehrig
1. Babe Ruth

Oh, there is a reason Williams is not on the list—he put it together.

[Exhibitman]

Setting aside the PEDs the list of the ten most productive hitters in history is incomplete without Barry Bonds.

162.8 WAR (4th all time; 1st all time for position players)
6th all time on base %
8th all time slugging %
5th all time OPS
3rd runs scored
5th total bases
1st walks
1st home runs

But I digress...

The Gehrig is the perfect storm of adverse issues.

--The initial price is a PWCC price so who knows if it is legit
--The card is grossly overgraded. The card corners look to me like they were rounded intentionally. The card should have gotten an A. Buyers with $100K to spend aren't going to be fooled by an overgrade of this magnitude.
--There was a reserve. I agree that reserves depress bidding.

The card Scott posted is typical of my experience with SGC grading Exhibit cards: they knock the snot out of them. Between the full bleed image and the size, a 5 on a prewar Exhibit is a very strong grade. At the 2006 National I purchased a small grouo of really nice fresh-to-the-hobby 1928s and i think the best grade I got out of the lot was a 5.5.

[robertsmithnocure]

Also Foxx benefited greatly by playing in his home ballparks while Gehrig was actually better on the road.

Gehrig had a lifetime road batting average of .351 and an OPS of 1.103 while Foxx batted .306 with an OPS of .966. That is a huge difference.

IMHO, Gehrig was a much better player.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Setting aside the PEDs the list of the ten most productive hitters in history is incomplete without Barry Bonds.

162.8 WAR (4th all time; 1st all time for position players)
6th all time on base %
8th all time slugging %
5th all time OPS
3rd runs scored
5th total bases
1st walks
1st home runs

But I digress...

The Gehrig is the perfect storm of adverse issues.

--The initial price is a PWCC price so who knows if it is legit
--The card is grossly overgraded. The card corners look to me like they were rounded intentionally. The card should have gotten an A. Buyers with $100K to spend aren't going to be fooled by an overgrade of this magnitude.
--There was a reserve. I agree that reserves depress bidding.

The card Scott posted is typical of my experience with SGC grading Exhibit cards: they knock the snot out of them. Between the full bleed image and the size, a 5 on a prewar Exhibit is a very strong grade. At the 2006 National I purchased a small grouo of really nice fresh-to-the-hobby 1928s and i think the best grade I got out of the lot was a 5.5.

Unfortunately, you cannot set aside PEDs. Like Clemens when he went to Toronto, Bonds career took off in staggering proportions when he started taking PEDs. Cheating, and there’s no way around it. While both Clemens & Bonds were already future HOFers before PEDs, their extraordinary lifetime numbers are seriously tainted by steroids. For that reason alone, both of them cannot be placed in the top 10 as a pitcher & hitter.