How do you rate the Negro League greats when discussing the history of baseball?

[Touch'EmAll]

I don't see how one can argue that the top Negro League players weren't on a par with the best MLB players.

MLB of the late 1940's and early 1950's had an infusion of blacks - Jackie, Paige, Aaron, Mays, Campanella, etc.

The Negro Leagues didn't just produce these top players all of a sudden with no top talent before them.

[Exhibitman]

Thread needs an image or two

[Peter_Spaeth]

The general observation that the best Black players were on the same level as the best White players is fairly easy and obvious. Without good numbers, though, it's a bit harder to make specific rankings and head to head comparisons. I'm not sure we can really say one way or the other, for example, who was the greater HR hitter, Ruth or Gibson. Or who was better, Lloyd or Wagner. Etc.

[JimC]

I tend to agree with Peter about rankings, especially since fans can't even agree on who was better among the guys who played in the same leagues. Ranking Ruth, Cobb, Aaron, Mantle, Musial, Mays and Ted Williams is a never ending debate. Wait, did someone say Clemente?

When you throw Charleston into the mix it just gets more speculative. Still, those early greats all deserve their due and it's cool to see them getting more recognition. I would love to see more research come out from the Cuban leagues about the participation of Negro Leaguers there.

[Jason19th]

It’s important to make a differentiation between quality of the leagues and the quality of the players. I believe that it is just historical malpractice to argue that the leagues were equal. Up until the 1940’s even the best negro league teams only carried 13-15 players at a time , had terribly unstable rosters with players jumping contacts all over the world, had no athletic training, poor transportation and even worse lodging. If you put the 1932 Chicago American giants in the National league and asked them to play 154 games they would have finished in last place 40 games back. The Negro league teams were not built to play the same type of season that the majors played. This is not criticizing the Negro league but merely recognizing the world they lived in the effects of existing in Jim Crow America. I would argue that by trying equalize the leagues we are actually writing out the racist reality that drove the inequality
The players however were often clearly the equal of major leaguers. Taking the same 1932 Chicago American team there were two Hofers Foster and Stearns and a couple of players who would have been perineal all stars at least in Radcliffe and Malarcher. Move any of these players into the National league in 1932 and they are still great

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

It’s important to make a differentiation between quality of the leagues and the quality of the players. I believe that it is just historical malpractice to argue that the leagues were equal. Up until the 1940’s even the best negro league teams only carried 13-15 players at a time , had terribly unstable rosters with players jumping contacts all over the world, had no athletic training, poor transportation and even worse lodging. If you put the 1932 Chicago American giants in the National league and asked them to play 154 games they would have finished in last place 40 games back. The Negro league teams were not built to play the same type of season that the majors played. This is not criticizing the Negro league but merely recognizing the world they lived in the effects of existing in Jim Crow America. I would argue that by trying equalize the leagues we are actually writing out the racist reality that drove the inequality
The players however were often clearly the equal of major leaguers. Taking the same 1932 Chicago American team there were two Hofers Foster and Stearns and a couple of players who would have been perineal all stars at least in Radcliffe and Malarcher. Move any of these players into the National league in 1932 and they are still great

Agreed

My 2 cents

Based on many articles and other available information, it's obvious the black players were just as good as the white players.

I just find it hard to integrate the stats and make comparisons between the Negro League stats and MLB stats because the Negro league stats are not even close to being complete, which is a total shame.

Believe me, I'm not inferring that the Negro League stats are meaningless. For all we know with complete stats, Oscar Charleston could be the lifetime batting average leader but there will never be that apples to apples comparison available.

[RCFire82]

Josh Gibson

162 game average:

BA .374 - Hits 218 - OBP 458
HR 45 - Runs 165 - SLG 720
RBI 198 - BB 90 - OPS 1.178

Not too shabby.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Fred

Agreed

My 2 cents

Based on many articles and other available information, it's obvious the black players were just as good as the white players.

I just find it hard to integrate the stats and make comparisons between the Negro League stats and MLB stats because the Negro league stats are not even close to being complete, which is a total shame.

Believe me, I'm not inferring that the Negro League stats are meaningless. For all we know with complete stats, Oscar Charleston could be the lifetime batting average leader but there will never be that apples to apples comparison available.

Yes, it is impossible to make an apples to apples comparison between players in the Negro Leagues and those in MLB. But by acknowledging the stats of the 7 Major Negro Leagues, Baseball Reference is bringing more recognition to these great players, which I think is both long overdue and fair.

Because Baseball Reference only counts the 7 Major Negro Leagues, which had the best competition, the counting stats are very low, so you have Josh Gibson with 165 career Home Runs, rather than the ~800 Home Runs he may have hit when you consider all his games. And Gibson doesn't qualify for career Batting Average because he had fewer than 3,000 plate appearances in Major Negro League Play.

But its tricky, like you say, when saying Oscar Charleston had the 2nd best career batting average ever at .364 with 3,920 Plate Appearances. Its tricky to compare Oscar Charleston to Ty Cobb, Hornsby, etc. but I still think it is the right thing to do, given the similarity of stats between the 7 Major Negro Leagues and the MLB, and the quality of players/teams.