The Aaron Judge Effect

[darwinbulldog]

I'm not going to delude myself into thinking that MLB is as popular as ever, or even as popular as it was in 1998, but it's always fun to watch players pursuing hallowed numbers. I expect Judge will end up with 62-64 HRs for the season, but what's really going to be a nail-biter is the pursuit of the Triple Crown. And while none of this is a record per se, he's also likely to be the only player other than Ruth himself to ever lead the league by 20+ HRs. Pujols is on a trajectory to finish with 700 or 701 career HRs if they start him for the rest of the season. I'm rooting for both of those guys, but the actual MLB record of interest to me rests with Framber Valdez, currently sitting on 25 consecutive quality starts with a chance to tie deGrom and Gibson's MLB record tomorrow night and break it next week.

All of this while Shohei Ohtani is outperforming his historically significant 2021 MVP year and Justin Verlander is outperforming his own historically significant MVP season, well, it makes for quite a season for those of us with intersecting interests in baseball and statistics.

[JimmyC]

I don't watch baseball like I used to anymore for many reasons.....still love collecting the vintage stuff though - from my youth and before - cards, game used stuff, autos, etc.....

So - I'll probably be watching replays when Judge hits 61 and beyond...which I look forward to...

From my perspective though, Maris is no footnote....He still holds the 162 game record for most home runs....PERIOD....Mac, Sosa and Bonds were juicers....cheats....plain and simple....

I know many of you here will disagree but that's what makes us all different!

Good luck to Judge....He seems like a good guy....The Maris children should be proud that their Dad's 162 game schedule home run record lasted 61 years...

IMHO

[BobC]

Originally Posted by JimmyC

I don't watch baseball like I used to anymore for many reasons.....still love collecting the vintage stuff though - from my youth and before - cards, game used stuff, autos, etc.....

So - I'll probably be watching replays when Judge hits 61 and beyond...which I look forward to...

From my perspective though, Maris is no footnote....He still holds the 162 game record for most home runs....PERIOD....Mac, Sosa and Bonds were juicers....cheats....plain and simple....

I know many of you here will disagree but that's what makes us all different!

Good luck to Judge....He seems like a good guy....The Maris children should be proud that their Dad's 162 game schedule home run record lasted 61 years...

IMHO

Well said!

[packs]

There have been a lot of articles and sports talk lately about what people view as the true record. It is a topic of conversation. I would say many casual fans do still view Maris as the record holder. Legitimate is a matter of opinion.

[raulus]

Reminds me a lot about when Drugged Earwig asserted that Hammerin Hank was the real home run king.

As a giants fan, this article always tickled my funny bone:

https://www.mccoveychronicles.com/pl...-king-ray-king

[BobC]

Originally Posted by packs

There have been a lot of articles and sports talk lately about what people view as the true record. It is a topic of conversation. I would say many casual fans do still view Maris as the record holder. Legitimate is a matter of opinion.

No one is arguing with you, but my responses were in regard to the posts about surprise being felt that there wasn't a lot more excitement and talk going on everywhere among fans and the public in general, in regard to Judge's achievement and going for such a record. There is not, and this is not, a debate about whether Bonds holds a "legitimate" record or not, it is an attempt to answer a question/comment posed about why more people may not be as excited about Judge's achievement than some others, and overall, displaying much less excitement and interest than they expected from the public in general.

The simple facts are that:

1. Not everyone is a serious fan and follows baseball as closely as others, so they truly don't care much, if at all, about what Judge is doing.

2. MLB still lists Bonds' 73 homers as the all-time single season record, so many people view that as the recognized record.

3. That someone would post saying they are surprised about the overall lack of excitement and talk surrounding Judge, shows that they have obviously underestimated the number of people that do fall into the categories I pointed out my first two fact points.

If you have any other, logical, intelligent, and/or common sensical points or ideas to otherwise explain why there may be less overall expected excitement and talk seen out in the general public surrounding Judge's achievement, I am happy to listen.

[RCMcKenzie]

Even if you erase from your memory, Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa, and Gonzo and Ortiz, etal.... Giancarlo Stanton hit 59 in 2017 for the Marlins. I don't remember it being a big deal at all.

I think a Triple Crown would be cool, but it's not a daily must see like a hitting streak. Cabrera did it a while back and I bet Tigers fans loved it. I thought it was neat.

[packs]

I commented after another poster referred to Maris being the record holder. I don't have any thoughts on your comments about waning popularity.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Even if you erase from your memory, Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa, and Gonzo and Ortiz, etal.... Giancarlo Stanton hit 59 in 2017 for the Marlins. I don't remember it being a big deal at all.

I think a Triple Crown would be cool, but it's not a daily must see like a hitting streak. Cabrera did it a while back and I bet Tigers fans loved it. I thought it was neat.

I wish Luis Gonzalez didn't get clumped in with those guys, but, I guess, if 57 homers weren't obvious enough, he had to go and have triplets. LOL


.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by BobC

If you have any other, logical, intelligent, and/or common sensical points or ideas to otherwise explain why there may be less overall expected excitement and talk seen out in the general public surrounding Judge's achievement, I am happy to listen.

I'm not sure if I meet this standard, but I enjoy hearing myself talk, so here goes:

1) As much as it pains me to admit it, baseball is nowhere close to being as popular as back in the good old days. 50 years ago, there was baseball, and then a big Big BIG step down to #2. These days, you could reasonably argue that the NBA and the NFL are legit contenders, likely even surpassing MLB, particularly in the public consciousness. And that's before we even get to all of the other sports that are surging in popularity. Soccer. Tennis. Hockey? Pickleball??

2) There's a lot going on these days that is competing for attention. A short list:
a) Some war
b) Nuclear weapons, this is not a bluff.
c) An election in 6 weeks, on which the very fate of the universe rests. THE UNIVERSE!!!
d) Inflation
e) Interest rates
f) Stock market craziness
g) The pandemic is over
h) Something about the border
i) England has a new king

So you add it all up, and Judge's run is amazing for those of us paying attention. But for the rest of the world, it's on page 23, in small font, buried behind the latest thing that happened with the Kardashians. I'm not saying it's right. But that's just the way it is.

[JimmyC]

There is a lot of craziness in the world right now and a lack of consumer confidence…..baseball and major league sports are the last thing on a lot of people’s minds right now…..as I said above, I don’t watch the game like I used to, but I do think there is good buzz over what Judge is doing right now and he’s a good guy and I think fans in general really like him - not just Yankees fans…you guys closer to the current game may truly feel the buzz is down and we all come at it from different perspectives…

Major League sports in general - specifically the big three - NBA, NFL and MLB have lost a lot of fans over the past few years…..due to their embracing of social issues - not getting political, but it’s a fact….those three have bent over backwards to political and social issues that I find just outright illogical….not the issues themselves, but how the Leagues react to players, businesses, sponsors, media and politicians….We just want to watch the game! …..an example was moving the All Star game out of Atlanta which made no sense to me….if you move the game from Atlanta for a certain issue, why not just eliminate the Braves as well?

The NHL has been the net gainer of fans the past few years…..and I see that trend continuing…..

Good luck Aaron on getting 61 and beyond…..I’ll be following even if I can’t sit down in front of the tube every time you get to the plate….

[BobC]

Originally Posted by raulus

I'm not sure if I meet this standard, but I enjoy hearing myself talk, so here goes:

1) As much as it pains me to admit it, baseball is nowhere close to being as popular as back in the good old days. 50 years ago, there was baseball, and then a big Big BIG step down to #2. These days, you could reasonably argue that the NBA and the NFL are legit contenders, likely even surpassing MLB, particularly in the public consciousness. And that's before we even get to all of the other sports that are surging in popularity. Soccer. Tennis. Hockey? Pickleball??

2) There's a lot going on these days that is competing for attention. A short list:
a) Some war
b) Nuclear weapons, this is not a bluff.
c) An election in 6 weeks, on which the very fate of the universe rests. THE UNIVERSE!!!
d) Inflation
e) Interest rates
f) Stock market craziness
g) The pandemic is over
h) Something about the border
i) England has a new king

So you add it all up, and Judge's run is amazing for those of us paying attention. But for the rest of the world, it's on page 23, in small font, buried behind the latest thing that happened with the Kardashians. I'm not saying it's right. But that's just the way it is.

LOL

All good Nicolo!

I get accused of typing and saying too much all the time, so was trying to keep my comments and reasons as short as possible. Was actually asking that as more or less a rhetorical question of those who seemed surprised by the lack of interest in Judge's feat. All additional great responses and reasons though.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by BobC

No one is arguing with you, but my responses were in regard to the posts about surprise being felt that there wasn't a lot more excitement and talk going on everywhere among fans and the public in general, in regard to Judge's achievement and going for such a record. There is not, and this is not, a debate about whether Bonds holds a "legitimate" record or not, it is an attempt to answer a question/comment posed about why more people may not be as excited about Judge's achievement than some others, and overall, displaying much less excitement and interest than they expected from the public in general.

The simple facts are that:

1. Not everyone is a serious fan and follows baseball as closely as others, so they truly don't care much, if at all, about what Judge is doing.

2. MLB still lists Bonds' 73 homers as the all-time single season record, so many people view that as the recognized record.

3. That someone would post saying they are surprised about the overall lack of excitement and talk surrounding Judge, shows that they have obviously underestimated the number of people that do fall into the categories I pointed out my first two fact points.

If you have any other, logical, intelligent, and/or common sensical points or ideas to otherwise explain why there may be less overall expected excitement and talk seen out in the general public surrounding Judge's achievement, I am happy to listen.

When Maris hit his 61 hrs, he was battling Mantle for the title most of the season. The interest was there because there were two players in contention.

[yanks4]

Right on!!! Correct.....Period

Originally Posted by JimmyC

I don't watch baseball like I used to anymore for many reasons.....still love collecting the vintage stuff though - from my youth and before - cards, game used stuff, autos, etc.....

So - I'll probably be watching replays when Judge hits 61 and beyond...which I look forward to...

From my perspective though, Maris is no footnote....He still holds the 162 game record for most home runs....PERIOD....Mac, Sosa and Bonds were juicers....cheats....plain and simple....

I know many of you here will disagree but that's what makes us all different!

Good luck to Judge....He seems like a good guy....The Maris children should be proud that their Dad's 162 game schedule home run record lasted 61 years...

IMHO

[FrankWakefield]

What Judge is doing / may do is of interest to Yankee fans. And that's about it. He isn't in a home run chase. When driving along an interstate I'm not chasing or racing mile markers, I'm just passing them. Judge is clicking off home run markers.

In 1961, Mantle and Maris were hitting home runs, and the country started looking at the possibility of one or both reaching Ruth's 60. Mantle and Maris had each other for competition. In 1998, McGwire and Sosa, on different teams, did the same. Some baseball analysists and historians thought it revived the interest in baseball that had been hurt by the 1993 strike. Takes at least two to race.

I saw McGwire and Sosa that year. Batting practice had a different quality to it. It reminded me of Church. Quieter, and with a bit of reverence. When either stepped into the batting cage, it got quiet. Players in the dugouts stepped up to see. Fans watched. Ushers and vendors paused. And when a ball was well hit, Ooo's and Aah's replaced the Amen's. And the voiced acclaim extended if the ball was arcing up into the stands.

When I think of 1998, my mind shifts to NASCAR when the haters voice disdain for McGwire and Sosa. As a disgruntled and disagreeable teenager, I saw my first NASCAR race in 1971. I didn't want to go. I became a convert that day, I saw Richard Petty win the Daytona 500. As I slowly developed a bit of interest in the sport, I discovered this stuff about 1970 and the Plymouth Superbird, that car with the high spoiler wing so that it was slightly higher than the roof of the car, getting it up into clean air when the car was at speed. in 1970, Petty won about 18 races with Superbirds. It violated no NASCAR rules of the day. But NASCAR changed the rules. For Superbirds to run in the 1971 season they'd have to reduce horsepower; and the cars weren't selling well at dealerships so the requirement about having the number of cars sold having to equal or exceed 2 x total dealerships was going to be a problem. My point, MLB's steroids / PED ban commenced in 2005. McGwire and Sosa didn't break any rules in 1998, there weren't any. There were rules as Clemens ended his career with the Yankees. And for A-Rod at the end of his (more on A.Rod later). Bond's had his 73 HR year in 2001, before the rules. He only played in 14 games in 2005 (was he pausing to get so he'd pass substance tests?). He hit 54 HRs total in 2006 and 2007, enough to get him past Aaron... So you guys can lump oranges and apples together, but you should at least recognize the differences.

Who was the first baseball player to be suspected of using Performance Enhancing Drugs? May well have been Pud Galvin, who's already in the HOF.

A-Rod. He didn't play in 2014, he was suspended. If he'd played (and some other 'if's like testing clean or not testing positive), then he'd have easily passed 700 and he'd have had a likely shot at passing 714. Reckon MLB and NYY wanted him to pass Babe Ruth? I think not. And that one year suspension did it. Maybe management would have held him out of games and 'rested' him if he'd have gotten close. (Reminds me of Whitey Ford winning 20 games or more only two seasons. What I recall is that management didn't want Whitey winning 20+ games, because they didn't want him using that when bargaining contract salary. Publicly, the Yankees were resting him a bit, not working him to hard, so he'd be fresh for the World Series. There were a bunch of those.) And it reminds me of how 100 years ago and a bit, the Cubs let go of Ed Reulbach, and he was picked up by Brooklyn, then the Federal League Newark team, then the Boston Braves. He ended up with only 182 wins. But the owners held him out (I believe) because he was active in the Baseball Players' Fraternity, he was an officer. Owners didn't like that. I think the owners denied him 25-30 wins. That, with his 2.28 lifetime ERA, his career hits allowed each season was always fewer than his innings pitched... The owners, GRRRRR. They didn't keep him outa the Hall, there was no Hall at the time. But I think he'd be in now if the owners hadn't clamped down on him, and others, for advocating for players' rights. Imagine what they'd have done to Curt Flood.

A lot of the time I find myself hating on something. I guess us haters are gonna hate. Let's put a bit of information sauce on that portion of hate.

One more thing... in baseball trivia, did you guys see which player from the 1960's appeared in the most World Series games? I saw him play in two WS games, but I didn't know the answer.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

One more thing... in baseball trivia, did you guys see which player from the 1960's appeared in the most World Series games? I saw him play in two WS games, but I didn't know the answer.

Was it Roger Maris?

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Was it Roger Maris?

What will be the most popular name for children of baseball fans in the next year?

Henry Judge

or

Aaron Aaron

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

What will be the most popular name for children of baseball fans in the next year?

Henry Judge

or

Aaron Aaron

My guess, if it's a baby born in California he/she will be named "Asterisk".

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

What Judge is doing / may do is of interest to Yankee fans. And that's about it.

Well, I think there is more interest in what Judge is doing than just in the Yankees universe, Lol.

But he seems to have gone into a little hitting funk. Pressure?

[FrankWakefield]

Yes Dave, Roger Maris.

1960, 61, 62, 63, and 64 for the Yankees, winning in 61 and 62.

1967 and 68 with the Cardinals, winning in 67.

That's a lot of World Series play. He was a pretty good ball player.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

What Judge is doing / may do is of interest to Yankee fans. And that's about it. He isn't in a home run chase. When driving along an interstate I'm not chasing or racing mile markers, I'm just passing them. Judge is clicking off home run markers.

In 1961, Mantle and Maris were hitting home runs, and the country started looking at the possibility of one or both reaching Ruth's 60. Mantle and Maris had each other for competition. In 1998, McGwire and Sosa, on different teams, did the same. Some baseball analysists and historians thought it revived the interest in baseball that had been hurt by the 1993 strike. Takes at least two to race.

I saw McGwire and Sosa that year. Batting practice had a different quality to it. It reminded me of Church. Quieter, and with a bit of reverence. When either stepped into the batting cage, it got quiet. Players in the dugouts stepped up to see. Fans watched. Ushers and vendors paused. And when a ball was well hit, Ooo's and Aah's replaced the Amen's. And the voiced acclaim extended if the ball was arcing up into the stands.

When I think of 1998, my mind shifts to NASCAR when the haters voice disdain for McGwire and Sosa. As a disgruntled and disagreeable teenager, I saw my first NASCAR race in 1971. I didn't want to go. I became a convert that day, I saw Richard Petty win the Daytona 500. As I slowly developed a bit of interest in the sport, I discovered this stuff about 1970 and the Plymouth Superbird, that car with the high spoiler wing so that it was slightly higher than the roof of the car, getting it up into clean air when the car was at speed. in 1970, Petty won about 18 races with Superbirds. It violated no NASCAR rules of the day. But NASCAR changed the rules. For Superbirds to run in the 1971 season they'd have to reduce horsepower; and the cars weren't selling well at dealerships so the requirement about having the number of cars sold having to equal or exceed 2 x total dealerships was going to be a problem. My point, MLB's steroids / PED ban commenced in 2005. McGwire and Sosa didn't break any rules in 1998, there weren't any. There were rules as Clemens ended his career with the Yankees. And for A-Rod at the end of his (more on A.Rod later). Bond's had his 73 HR year in 2001, before the rules. He only played in 14 games in 2005 (was he pausing to get so he'd pass substance tests?). He hit 54 HRs total in 2006 and 2007, enough to get him past Aaron... So you guys can lump oranges and apples together, but you should at least recognize the differences.

Who was the first baseball player to be suspected of using Performance Enhancing Drugs? May well have been Pud Galvin, who's already in the HOF.

A-Rod. He didn't play in 2014, he was suspended. If he'd played (and some other 'if's like testing clean or not testing positive), then he'd have easily passed 700 and he'd have had a likely shot at passing 714. Reckon MLB and NYY wanted him to pass Babe Ruth? I think not. And that one year suspension did it. Maybe management would have held him out of games and 'rested' him if he'd have gotten close. (Reminds me of Whitey Ford winning 20 games or more only two seasons. What I recall is that management didn't want Whitey winning 20+ games, because they didn't want him using that when bargaining contract salary. Publicly, the Yankees were resting him a bit, not working him to hard, so he'd be fresh for the World Series. There were a bunch of those.) And it reminds me of how 100 years ago and a bit, the Cubs let go of Ed Reulbach, and he was picked up by Brooklyn, then the Federal League Newark team, then the Boston Braves. He ended up with only 182 wins. But the owners held him out (I believe) because he was active in the Baseball Players' Fraternity, he was an officer. Owners didn't like that. I think the owners denied him 25-30 wins. That, with his 2.28 lifetime ERA, his career hits allowed each season was always fewer than his innings pitched... The owners, GRRRRR. They didn't keep him outa the Hall, there was no Hall at the time. But I think he'd be in now if the owners hadn't clamped down on him, and others, for advocating for players' rights. Imagine what they'd have done to Curt Flood.

A lot of the time I find myself hating on something. I guess us haters are gonna hate. Let's put a bit of information sauce on that portion of hate.

One more thing... in baseball trivia, did you guys see which player from the 1960's appeared in the most World Series games? I saw him play in two WS games, but I didn't know the answer.

Rules? What Bonds and the steroid cheats did was basically against the LAW. You can't get em from your buddy.

Besides that. Judge is doing it clean (we assume) so 60 is a big deal.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

Rules? What Bonds and the steroid cheats did was basically against the LAW. You can't get em from your buddy.

Besides that. Judge is doing it clean (we assume) so 60 is a big deal.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

Also don't forget that back during Maris' time, many ballplayers were known to be taking amphetamines to improve their focus and "twitch" muscle reaction time. And I seem to also remember having heard that the Yankees were one of those teams that supposedly always had a pot or two of coffee on during games back then, oftentimes laced with amphetamines, that some players would drink during games for that additional caffeine/amphetamine rush. Is it possible Maris may have taken part in using this to his advantage as well on some occasions?

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by BobC

Also don't forget that back during Maris' time, many ballplayers were known to be taking amphetamines to improve their focus and "twitch" muscle reaction time. And I seem to also remember having heard that the Yankees were one of those teams that supposedly always had a pot or two of coffee on during games back then, oftentimes laced with amphetamines, that some players would drink during games for that additional caffeine/amphetamine rush. Is it possible Maris may have taken part in using this to his advantage as well on some occasions?

Sure, but then you get into effects--- did the "leaded" coffee have the same benefits as steroids?

What the steroid guys did was next level---it made a great Bonds immortal but to me he is the home run king, and massive cheat.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by BobC

Also don't forget that back during Maris' time, many ballplayers were known to be taking amphetamines to improve their focus and "twitch" muscle reaction time. And I seem to also remember having heard that the Yankees were one of those teams that supposedly always had a pot or two of coffee on during games back then, oftentimes laced with amphetamines, that some players would drink during games for that additional caffeine/amphetamine rush. Is it possible Maris may have taken part in using this to his advantage as well on some occasions?

And let's not forget Ruth, you know the Babe was boozed up or recovering from a night out many an at bat. And that was during Prohibation, so you want to talk about breaking the law.

They all did what they had to do during their time period.

I thought the McGwire Sosa first season head to head was TREMENDOUS!

Who care's if they were juiced, about 3 guys on the planet hit the ball like that and 80/90% were doing it and they couldn't do what Sosa, McGwire and Bonds did.

And I'll say that one season Bonds had was the greatest by a hitter I ever saw. THAT TOO WAS TREMENDOUS!!!

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

Rules? What Bonds and the steroid cheats did was basically against the LAW. You can't get em from your buddy.

Besides that. Judge is doing it clean (we assume) so 60 is a big deal.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

In actuality most of the known supplements taken by many of these players were available at the local GNC and most banned but not illegal substances still are. The Androstenedione that was in the legendary locker background for Big Mac and caused the media stink was being taken by myself admittedly along with some much more powerful agents. Andro is still not illegal, but banned for import since 4/11/2004. Certainly, I can't say this was a harmless activity as I have had cancer twice now and I have no idea if they were interrelated. Most of these supplements were not banned in the US until after the home run chase due to the media focus. As to the Balco type drugs, "The Clear" was legal until 2005 as they were new inventions that the laws had to update to reflect these as illegal as well. The 70's-80s base steroids (Decastacks) were very legal and found in any gym or back pages of weightlifting magazines until 2/27/91 when they were made schedule 3. HGH is also still legal as it gets and available to anyone with the money to get it (check for any "anti-aging" clinic near you and I will bet that you can walk right in for HGH shots and Testosterone supplements/shots/or cremes).

I was an industrial mechanic and a private security agent on weekends for extra money in the early 90's. I was constantly injured from one-shouldering 250 lb worm drives and VFDs while working on mezzanines 40 ft in the air. I took them to heal so I could bring in income for my family and worked out daily to avoid being on disability. I took nothing that was permitted in MLB, but nothing I could not buy easily on line or at GNC. The breaking laws argument is a myth, the breaking league rules after those dates was the only "crime" per say.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by JustinD

In actuality most of the known supplements taken by many of these players were available at the local GNC and most banned but not illegal substances still are. The Androstenedione that was in the legendary locker background for Big Mac and caused the media stink was being taken by myself admittedly along with some much more powerful agents. Andro is still not illegal, but banned for import since 4/11/2004. Certainly, I can't say this was a harmless activity as I have had cancer twice now and I have no idea if they were interrelated. Most of these supplements were not banned in the US until after the home run chase due to the media focus. As to the Balco type drugs, "The Clear" was legal until 2005 as they were new inventions that the laws had to update to reflect these as illegal as well. The 70's-80s base steroids (Decastacks) were very legal and found in any gym or back pages of weightlifting magazines until 2/27/91 when they were made schedule 3. HGH is also still legal as it gets and available to anyone with the money to get it (check for any "anti-aging" clinic near you and I will bet that you can walk right in for HGH shots and Testosterone supplements/shots/or cremes).

I was an industrial mechanic and a private security agent on weekends for extra money in the early 90's. I was constantly injured from one-shouldering 250 lb worm drives and VFDs while working on mezzanines 40 ft in the air. I took them to heal so I could bring in income for my family and worked out daily to avoid being on disability. I took nothing that was permitted in MLB, but nothing I could not buy easily on line or at GNC. The breaking laws argument is a myth, the breaking league rules after those dates was the only "crime" per say.

I don't agree its a myth. It is illegal to use steroids or hgh without a rx from a dr.

Not Greg Anderson, who served time because of it. Albeit a slap on the wrist.

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