new low for the ebay authenticity thing

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

interesting how many responses are basically “I can tell a real slab from a fake slab …. this process is stupid.”. Not that it’s good or bad for cleaning up fraud in hobby as a whole, but let me tell you how this is inconvenient to me personally ….

If you feel you need the service then you should use it but I think we should have a choice. Apparently you feel it should be thrust onto everyone. Maybe some of us feel we can fend for ourselves and do not need eBay looking out for us in this manner. As a buyer I have never had an issue with a seller on eBay where I would need the authenticity guarantee.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

If you feel you need the service then you should use it but I think we should have a choice. Apparently you feel it should be thrust onto everyone. Maybe some of us feel we can fend for ourselves and do not need eBay looking out for us in this manner. As a buyer I have never had an issue with a seller on eBay where I would need the authenticity guarantee.

Thank you.

Unfortunately, with this hobby and many other facets of life, personal responsibility went out the window a long time ago.

[Snapolit1]

Opting out …. the new American mantra. Every system put in place should have my seal of approval on in. Fuck getting a drivers license, if I want to drive without a license or insurance it should be my right. Same with airport security and everything else. Only sheepies let other people tell them what they have to do.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Opting out …. the new American mantra. Every system put in place should have my seal of approval on in. Fuck getting a drivers license, if I want to drive without a license or insurance it should be my right. Same with airport security and everything else. Only sheepies let other people tell them what they have to do.

Wut.

A better analogy would be declining the extended warranty when you buy a refrigerator. Do you object to that too?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Opting out …. the new American mantra. Every system put in place should have my seal of approval on in. Fuck getting a drivers license, if I want to drive without a license or insurance it should be my right. Same with airport security and everything else. Only sheepies let other people tell them what they have to do.

Interesting argument. One must support (or at least express no dissent) of any process put in place by the state or a company.

The irony of making this argument and then ending it by postulating that anyone who makes a decision on their own basis, instead of agreeing with whatever the government or a company has decided to do, are the real 'sheepie' is just outstanding. Bravo

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

Interesting argument. One must support (or at least express no dissent) of any process put in place by the state or a company.

The irony of making this argument and then ending it by postulating that anyone who makes a decision on their own basis, instead of agreeing with whatever the government or a company has decided to do, are the real 'sheepie' is just outstanding. Bravo

It was one of Steve's most precious posts. Atta boy Steve.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

If you feel you need the service then you should use it but I think we should have a choice. Apparently you feel it should be thrust onto everyone. Maybe some of us feel we can fend for ourselves and do not need eBay looking out for us in this manner. As a buyer I have never had an issue with a seller on eBay where I would need the authenticity guarantee.

Unfortunately if someone is an idiot and gets scammed by an ebay seller it reflects poorly on the whole platform. Most people are looking for a site where they don't have to navigate through that nonsense. Good for you that you embrace it but you might have to find somewhere else to fulfill your adventurous side.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[steve B]

There are others way more qualified to answer, and if I didn't expect the answer to be long I'd ask it differently.

Should a buyer expect Ebay to protect them from their own ignorance?

Is there a legal basis for that expectation?

And the unanswerable - why do people find it so onerous to relieve themselves of their ignorance by learning things and instead abdicate that responsibility to a proven incompetent or corrupt third party?

I generally find willful ignorance worse than the scamming itself.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by steve B

There are others way more qualified to answer, and if I didn't expect the answer to be long I'd ask it differently.

Should a buyer expect Ebay to protect them from their own ignorance?

Is there a legal basis for that expectation?

And the unanswerable - why do people find it so onerous to relieve themselves of their ignorance by learning things and instead abdicate that responsibility to a proven incompetent or corrupt third party?

I generally find willful ignorance worse than the scamming itself.

I completely disagree with the comments in this post. Scamming is always worse than ignorance. It's outrageous to me that we can blame the victim of the scamming instead of the perpetrator. There's an entire thread on N54 right now on the scamming going on in the BST, and many of the victims are experienced and knowledgeable board members. it's the same thing with ebay. Buyers on ebay expect a safe marketplace. They shouldn't have to be on guard that they will be scammed.

Therefore, in general, I completely support the steps that ebay is taking with their guarantee authentication service. I have bought several items that went through this service, both graded and raw. I've never had an issue with the additional days that it took for the items to go through the service. Frankly, the biggest time issue was that one seller sent the item to the authentication service through USPS Registered Mail, that that took FOREVER. But everyone recommends Register mail for expensive items, so I was fine with it.

I agree that it makes less sense to have graded cards go through the Authentication service, but I'm fine with it. As others have mentioned, there have been scams even with graded cards such as empty box, bogus tracking numbers, cracked slabs, fake slabs, and so forth. Let me put it this way. Let's say the major auction houses said that as a new policy, graded cards would now be shipped directly from the consignor to you instead of from the auction house. if you have any problems after receiving the item, tough luck. I think there would be outrage against any auction house that announced this change because folks expect the auction house to do some basic sanity checking for even the graded cards as part of the service they expect from the BP they pay. It's the same thing here.

[Yoda]

I agree that Jay's suspicion will be foretold and Ebay, in the not so distant future, will decide that buyers should have to pay, say $5, for their "invaluable" authentication service. No free lunches. No sir.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Yoda

I agree that Jay's suspicion will be foretold and Ebay, in the not so distant future, will decide that buyers should have to pay, say $5, for their "invaluable" authentication service. No free lunches. No sir.

Apparently authentication has been required for sneakers (and I think watches) on eBay for a while. Does anyone know if there is a charge to the seller or buyer for that?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Apparently authentication has been required for sneakers (and I think watches) on eBay for a while. Does anyone know if there is a charge to the seller or buyer for that?

I have bought several sneakers since it started and there is still no extra fee.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by glchen

I completely disagree with the comments in this post. Scamming is always worse than ignorance. It's outrageous to me that we can blame the victim of the scamming instead of the perpetrator. There's an entire thread on N54 right now on the scamming going on in the BST, and many of the victims are experienced and knowledgeable board members. it's the same thing with ebay. Buyers on ebay expect a safe marketplace. They shouldn't have to be on guard that they will be scammed.

Therefore, in general, I completely support the steps that ebay is taking with their guarantee authentication service. I have bought several items that went through this service, both graded and raw. I've never had an issue with the additional days that it took for the items to go through the service. Frankly, the biggest time issue was that one seller sent the item to the authentication service through USPS Registered Mail, that that took FOREVER. But everyone recommends Register mail for expensive items, so I was fine with it.

I agree that it makes less sense to have graded cards go through the Authentication service, but I'm fine with it. As others have mentioned, there have been scams even with graded cards such as empty box, bogus tracking numbers, cracked slabs, fake slabs, and so forth. Let me put it this way. Let's say the major auction houses said that as a new policy, graded cards would now be shipped directly from the consignor to you instead of from the auction house. if you have any problems after receiving the item, tough luck. I think there would be outrage against any auction house that announced this change because folks expect the auction house to do some basic sanity checking for even the graded cards as part of the service they expect from the BP they pay. It's the same thing here.

The scams pulled off or attempted here are an entirely different situation than most of the ones on Ebay.

Sending to PSA or CSG is only intended to catch items that are not authentic or not what they are claimed to be.
They wouldn't preclude a scam where the item is never actually shipped and the seller vanishes.

In the case of bad cards, I believe it's up to the buyer to have some idea what they're buying and some ability to tell if it's real.
PSA themselves don't have as much ability to spot alterations as they claim, and I wouldn't expect CSG to be better because they're new.

I've bought a handful of fake or altered cards over 40+ years. All but one I suspected were fake or knew for sure it was altered/fake. The only one that fooled me was the first, when I'd been collecting more seriously for less than a year.
My own knowledge is the first line of defense, That applies to all my hobbies.
And I believe it should apply even more as the items become more expensive.

Not having that knowledge is, at least to me irresponsible.
Like saying "I don't need to worry about riptides despite the warnings! They have lifeguards."

[Snowman]

Not giving buyers the option to bypass this authentication step is the part I dislike. I don't need help determining if a card or slab is authentic or not.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Not giving buyers the option to bypass this authentication step is the part I dislike. I don't need help determining if a card or slab is authentic or not.

That was my point early on. Glad they are offering it to those who need it. At the risk of infuriating Sanpolit1 again, I don't need CSG's opinion on an ungraded card and I certainly do not need PSA's opinion on a slab's authenticity.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

That was my point early on. Glad they are offering it to those who need it. At the risk of infuriating Sanpolit1 again, I don't need CSG's opinion on an ungraded card and I certainly do not need PSA's opinion on a slab's authenticity.

Especially one from its rivals...For that matter, I don't need CSG's opinion on a card it doesn't grade. That's like asking a homeless guy for interior decorating tips.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Especially one from its rivals...For that matter, I don't need CSG's opinion on a card it doesn't grade. That's like asking a homeless guy for interior decorating tips.

Out by me I see some super creative stuff so...

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Especially one from its rivals...For that matter, I don't need CSG's opinion on a card it doesn't grade. That's like asking a homeless guy for interior decorating tips.

I don't buy raw cards on eBay very often, so I couldn't care less.

Realize my life would be a lot easier here if I knew everything like you guys and just consistently complained about everything. I could complain Ebay is not doing anything on fraud. Then I could complain that they are trying to do something on fraud but it's a hassle. Again, just like the larger political environment we are all dealing with. Complain politician is doing nothing about problem A. Outrageous that he hasn't spoken about this issue. Then complain politician's proposal on problem A is woefully inadequate. Then when politician changes proposed problem rip him or her for taking so long to deal with it. And then complain that problem really doesn't have to be addressed in first place. And then slam cost of trying to deal with problem. Whatever the move is just complain.


It's a cool system. Just complain about everything.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Realize my life would be a lot easier here if I knew everything like you guys and just consistently complained.

The irony.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I don't buy raw cards on eBay very often, so I couldn't care less.

Realize my life would be a lot easier here if I knew everything like you guys and just consistently complained about everything. I could complain Ebay is not doing anything on fraud. Then I could complain that they are trying to do something on fraud but it's a hassle. Again, just like the larger political environment we are all dealing with. Complain politician is doing nothing about problem A. Outrageous that he hasn't spoken about this issue. Then complain politician's proposal on problem A is woefully inadequate. Then when politician changes proposed problem rip him or her for taking so long to deal with it. And then complain that problem really doesn't have to be addressed in first place. And then slam cost of trying to deal with problem. Whatever the move is just complain.


It's a cool system. Just complain about everything.

I don't know everything about everything. But if I was going to spend a few thousand on something I'd darn sure learn enough about it to trust my own opinion first instead of just blindly spending. Or putting all my trust in a company that's often wrong. Or one that has less experience than I do by a few decades...

So I don't buy expensive autographs, but I do get some educational entertainment from the "is this ok" threads in that section. I try to guess if it is, then read to see if I'm right.

[JimmyC]

I’ve bought a few recently….the delay is not bothersome…do not like the sealed baggies though….as mentioned above, you can’t even see the entire card….I buy cards to enjoy - not to put into some vault….needless to say, the baggies are in the trash as is all of the packaging material….

[dmats33312]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

If you feel you need the service then you should use it but I think we should have a choice. Apparently you feel it should be thrust onto everyone. Maybe some of us feel we can fend for ourselves and do not need eBay looking out for us in this manner. As a buyer I have never had an issue with a seller on eBay where I would need the authenticity guarantee.

You have a choice, don't use eBay. It's pretty simple.

[Jay Wolt]

The concept makes sense as it can get the fraudsters out.....
but how much longer will it be until the buyers have to pay for this service?

[Peter_Spaeth]

BTW, suppose PSA decides a slab is fake. What then? What does it do with the slab?

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

BTW, suppose PSA decides a slab is fake. What then? What does it do with the slab?

Or suppose PSA decides a fake slab is real?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Or suppose PSA decides a fake slab is real?

As I have posted, I believe that happened with an expensive (30k at the time, much more now) card that the evidence (including another card with the identical cert, and sale in the same auction as a documented fake) suggested was fake.

[jayshum]

From the eBay FAQs about the authentication process:

What if the item does not pass inspection?
If the authenticator cannot verify the item’s authenticity or if the item is not consistent with its listing, you will be issued a full refund to your original payment method. For PSA-graded cards specifically, if a plastic sealed holder is found to be fake or exhibit signs of tampering, PSA will deactivate its certificate and issue a notice to the seller.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

From the eBay FAQs about the authentication process:

What if the item does not pass inspection?
If the authenticator cannot verify the item’s authenticity or if the item is not consistent with its listing, you will be issued a full refund to your original payment method. For PSA-graded cards specifically, if a plastic sealed holder is found to be fake or exhibit signs of tampering, PSA will deactivate its certificate and issue a notice to the seller.

Does the seller still get the slab back?

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Does the seller still get the slab back?

I don't see an answer to that question in the FAQs, but I thought if a raw card failed authentication it was sent back to the seller so I would guess the same would happen with a graded card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

From the eBay FAQs about the authentication process:

What if the item does not pass inspection?
If the authenticator cannot verify the item’s authenticity or if the item is not consistent with its listing, you will be issued a full refund to your original payment method. For PSA-graded cards specifically, if a plastic sealed holder is found to be fake or exhibit signs of tampering, PSA will deactivate its certificate and issue a notice to the seller.

Presumably fake flips take their number from real flips, that's part of how they fool people. At least that is how the Mexican fraud worked. So if PSA deactivates the cert from a fake flip, that means the owner of the real card now has a deactivated cert? What am I missing?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Presumably fake flips take their number from real flips, that's part of how they fool people. At least that is how the Mexican fraud worked. So if PSA deactivates the cert from a fake flip, that means the owner of the real card now has a deactivated cert? What am I missing?

Great point and question. Here's possibly another.

If under the program a graded card gets sent to a TPG to verify that the card holder is real and hasn't been tampered with, what happens if in sending the card to the designated TPG the holder somehow gets damaged in transit? Or what if it gets damaged in the hands of the people at the designated TPG? Could it be possible for that card to be 100% legit and real, but now because of third-party damage to the holder that some examiner deems the damaged holder as tampered with, and therefore puts the legitimacy of the card itself into question?

Which leads back to Peter's and other's other question, what happens to the card itself in such an instance when the holder is considered fake or tampered with? Does it get returned to the seller, but now in damaged form? Since at the end of the day, whatever TPG is hired to review these holders is still only technically giving their opinion, I doubt they could ever claim the cards are truly fake or tampered with, and as a result confiscate them and not send them back to the seller. To my thinking, such an action would go beyond the mere rendering of an opinion, and confiscation of cards would put actual liability in the lap of the TPG and/or online seller, which they most certainly do not ever want if they can help it.

We all know it is not a question of if, but when, something like that finally happens. And at that point I can see a very upset seller getting everyone else all just pointing fingers at each other, and no one taking any responsibility for the whole issue, leaving the seller stuck.

The other part of this I've never understood is how you can pick one TPG group/company to be in charge of reviewing encapsulated cards and holders of other TPGs as well. Exactly how did those designated examiners suddenly become experts in the card holders of every other TPG? What training did they receive and/or school did they attend to gain such knowledge and expertise?

Also, one would think that there should be a sense of independence to this process as well. I can see hiring a TPG to look at raw cards being sold on an online platform as there is no independence question or issue in that case. But in hiring one specific TPG to examine and review card holders of cards they graded and issued, along with graded card holders of all other TPG graded cards, that can raise a bit of an independence issue and question in my mind.

The transparency in this entire program, quite frankly, stinks. Otherwise, people wouldn't have to be bringing up such questions, at least not so long after such a program was initiated and originally put into place.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by dmats33312

You have a choice, don't use eBay. It's pretty simple.

It seems like this choice is getting more and more popular, at least for Prewar cards.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by dmats33312

You have a choice, don't use eBay. It's pretty simple.

Ah. One of them. Gotcha.