OT: 3.5 Million Dollar Scam - Pokemon Cards Certified by BBCE

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by japhi

All the information on the case was available online. Going in to that video it was widely known the case had serious issues. Further, provenance on the case was brutal. I think Steve is a hobby good guy, but if he was blindsided by this then I question his approach to authentication and wonder if he owns a computer.

Of course he owns a computer, he does business online and through ebay. Maybe though he doesn't read Pokémon forums or whatever other obscure places this stuff was posted. If you're Logan or San and are genuinely interested in Steve's ongoing opinion, why not tell him about the information and get his thoughts? Or is he just a prop for the video now?

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of course he owns a computer, he does business online and through ebay. Maybe though he doesn't read Pokémon forums or whatever other obscure places this stuff was posted.

There were multiple threads on Blowout and Collector's Universe about it before Steve showed up, and Youtube videos with millions of views at that time. And I'd have to bet if he checked his emails, there would have been many people alerting him to his name being dragged through the mud. Or maybe he just doesn't have many friends. Even PSA should have been contacting him once it hit their message board.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of course he owns a computer, he does business online and through ebay. Maybe though he doesn't read Pokémon forums or whatever other obscure places this stuff was posted. If you're Logan or San and are genuinely interested in Steve's ongoing opinion, why not tell him about the information and get his thoughts? Or is he just a prop for the video now?

I don't follow Pokemon, but knew all about this before the reveal. This was not hidden in the obscurities of the internet. This was being brought up in other forums and social media sports card groups because of the crossover.

Steve Hart can't even be bothered to research a case that he is authenticating, so it doesn't surprise me that he didn't do any research going into this meeting.



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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

I don't follow Pokemon, but knew all about this before the reveal. This was not hidden in the obscurities of the internet. This was being brought up in other forums and social media sports card groups because of the crossover.

Steve Hart can't even be bothered to research a case that he is authenticating, so it doesn't surprise me that he didn't do any research going into this meeting.

I knew nothing about it until two days ago, but I don't look at social media or CU or whatever.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of course he owns a computer, he does business online and through ebay. Maybe though he doesn't read Pokémon forums or whatever other obscure places this stuff was posted. If you're Logan or San and are genuinely interested in Steve's ongoing opinion, why not tell him about the information and get his thoughts? Or is he just a prop for the video now?

I was being facetious on the computer comment....

But I'd suggest that if you are in the business of authenticating 7 figure Pokemon cases you may want to follow the Poke forums and use all tools available to you. Hard to become a subject matter expert without any interest in the subject.

He also failed on hundreds of star on front cellos that were out of sequence, sequencing that is available online.

In a day and age when you can learn to build a house, or tear down a Chevy 350 online seems like a missed opportunity.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by japhi

I was being facetious on the computer comment....

But I'd suggest that if you are in the business of authenticating 7 figure Pokemon cases you may want to follow the Poke forums and use all tools available to you. Hard to become a subject matter expert without any interest in the subject.

He also failed on hundreds of star on front cellos that were out of sequence, sequencing that is available online.

In a day and age when you can learn to build a house, or tear down a Chevy 350 online seems like a missed opportunity.

Matt, to be clear I'm not defending the mistaken authentication, just saying to me it's understandable he wouldn't have known of developments leading up to the video, not like he took on some ongoing obligation to monitor Pokémon forums. After cases I work on are resolved I don't look every day for news about my clients.

[vintagetoppsguy]

To me, whether he knew or not, is irrelevant. I'm just trying to put myself in Steve's shoes and, if I were him, I would want to be there as the case was opened just to make sure the BBCE shrink-wrap had been tampered with since it was authenticated.

[swarmee]

Just went back to check, I bumped the BBCX thread on 1/1. So it was 1/8 when Steve reviewed the case, a full week later.

[bigfanNY]

I followed this thread and a number of related threads because thanks to my daughter I became a pokemon card collector over 20 years ago. She was a member of a pokemon league at our Local Toys R Us. And being in ment that we could purchase a box of each new series introduced. Jungle and Fossill, Team Rocket etc. First edition boxes as well as regular booster boxes. I am happy to say my Daughter still has her binders full of sets and near sets. Now on to the case.
The case in question was advertised as a First edtion Base series unopened case. Someone earlier mentioned that no other cases are known. There is a known case to referance. It has the stop tape cut and one flap opened so that the owner could identify the first edition stamp on the top boxes. He did this because the outside case is identical to a normal (not first edition case) so opening the case was the only way to know for sure.
I agree that Steve Hart rightly so took a blow to his reputation. He authenticated a sealed case of GI joe cards with a fake label as a Very valuable Pokemon case. Now he has stated he will no longer authenticate pokemon. I think this was wrong of him to do. He has already authenticated a large number of pokemon packs and boxes. So what happens to them? Are they worth more now that you cannot get any more slabbed? Or will PSA and BBCE refund all the grading fees and postage fees to folks that sent them in? (Tough to write that last sentance witout laughing). If the reason Steve made a mistake was his lack of knowledge then why not learn? Admit it was a mistake and really learn from it so that it doesn't happen again. Offer a free review to those with current slabs / Wrapped boxes. For him to just walk away with his pockets full is not cool.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Matt, to be clear I'm not defending the mistaken authentication, just saying to me it's understandable he wouldn't have known of developments leading up to the video, not like he took on some ongoing obligation to monitor Pokémon forums. After cases I work on are resolved I don't look every day for news about my clients.

Understood Peter, you position on this is solid. I guess I struggle with experts and folks providing expertise that don’t use all tools available. My issue is with his research prior to authentication - all the warning signs seemed to be there and fairly available. His auth fee would have covered a days research. Makes me question his knowledge on other items. Simply can’t understand how provenance isn’t part of his method on ultra rare items.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Maybe the dude who had the case reviewed by Steve misled him. The article suggests maybe he wasn't an innocent player in all this, just repeating it here, not vouching for it.

"The Jacob Gabay Question

Everyone involved in this deal has released statements, and true or not, they seem plausible. The one individual who did not release a public comment on the affair was Jacob Gabay, AKA Card Kahuna.

According to Rattle Pokemon, who broke the story, he was contacted twice by Gabay regarding the incident. Both attempts at contact occurred before the opening. At first, he was confrontational and unrepentant and came from his business Instagram account.

He told Rattle that a defamation lawsuit would be forthcoming due to “business I lost out in [sic] due to your video.” However, he also insisted, “I’m 10000% sure this [Base Set] case is real.”

However, Rattle later received a message from another account, purporting to be Gabay’s personal account. The message there was quite different and included a potential bribe offer: “I will pay you $500,000 to take the video down. This is my personal account. Logan can’t open the box.”

Therefore, there are solid grounds for believing that Jacob Gabay committed fraud. However, that is merely an allegation for now."

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe the dude who had the case reviewed by Steve misled him. The article suggests maybe he wasn't an innocent player in all this, just repeating it here, not vouching for it.

My thoughts are that this guy and Jameel (meelypops) just got dollar signs in their eyes and thought they could make a quick million dollar flip once Steve signed off. If they thought the case was fake, I don't think they would have recorded videos and posted Youtube clips of them flying to Canada to take possession of the package and then be so open about taking it to BBCE. Just that greed got the best of them.
Whether or not their backstory swayed Steve to make the authentication, it doesn't look like he relied on that at all. He seems to have just put eyes on the item and blessed it.
So supposedly the two buyers went to Canada and paid "7 figures" for the original faked case, then had it sealed at BBCE, and resold it soon after for $2.7M. Meely supposedly got $550K from the sale, meaning the other guy got $2.2 Million or so. That guy seems to have run out of cash, and cannot refund Shyne, the guy that flipped it to Logan Paul. Meely originally balked on returning the $550K and then it looks like his lawyer convinced him to put it in escrow to repay Shyne. Meely has a store in Gainesville FL that I visited a few years ago, but regularly posted his baseball card show transactions on social media and blowout recaps. If he cannot get the money back from the Canadian guy pokebutler, I guess he's learning an expensive lesson.

We'll see if this goes the criminal route against either Jameel or his co-buyer (or the Canadian authorities go after the maker), or whether this is fought in courtrooms over the lost cash. If the first buyers knew the case was fake when they imported it to the US, then they could be in for a mess with the FBI. But if that were the case, why pay $1 million on the off-chance that it would fool Steve? Why not just create your own fake case in the US and attempt to pass that off?

[japhi]

They didn’t pay 7 figures, they are lying about that. That tale and the idea this was some hick farmer is a big part of them trying to improve provenance . The case sold on bids for 5 figures and they purchased it AFTER that sale fell through. So hard to believe they paid 15x the failed auction price.

Suspect they got it for under 80k and were taking a chance on getting it authed and or bringing it back for refund / legal. A gamble and fraud that almost paid off big time.

Originally Posted by swarmee

My thoughts are that this guy and Jameel (meelypops) just got dollar signs in their eyes and thought they could make a quick million dollar flip once Steve signed off. If they thought the case was fake, I don't think they would have recorded videos and posted Youtube clips of them flying to Canada to take possession of the package and then be so open about taking it to BBCE. Just that greed got the best of them.
Whether or not their backstory swayed Steve to make the authentication, it doesn't look like he relied on that at all. He seems to have just put eyes on the item and blessed it.
So supposedly the two buyers went to Canada and paid "7 figures" for the original faked case, then had it sealed at BBCE, and resold it soon after for $2.7M. Meely supposedly got $550K from the sale, meaning the other guy got $2.2 Million or so. That guy seems to have run out of cash, and cannot refund Shyne, the guy that flipped it to Logan Paul. Meely originally balked on returning the $550K and then it looks like his lawyer convinced him to put it in escrow to repay Shyne. Meely has a store in Gainesville FL that I visited a few years ago, but regularly posted his baseball card show transactions on social media and blowout recaps. If he cannot get the money back from the Canadian guy pokebutler, I guess he's learning an expensive lesson.

We'll see if this goes the criminal route against either Jameel or his co-buyer (or the Canadian authorities go after the maker), or whether this is fought in courtrooms over the lost cash. If the first buyers knew the case was fake when they imported it to the US, then they could be in for a mess with the FBI. But if that were the case, why pay $1 million on the off-chance that it would fool Steve? Why not just create your own fake case in the US and attempt to pass that off?

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by swarmee

My thoughts are that this guy and Jameel (meelypops) just got dollar signs in their eyes and thought they could make a quick million dollar flip once Steve signed off. If they thought the case was fake, I don't think they would have recorded videos and posted Youtube clips of them flying to Canada to take possession of the package and then be so open about taking it to BBCE. Just that greed got the best of them.
Whether or not their backstory swayed Steve to make the authentication, it doesn't look like he relied on that at all. He seems to have just put eyes on the item and blessed it.
So supposedly the two buyers went to Canada and paid "7 figures" for the original faked case, then had it sealed at BBCE, and resold it soon after for $2.7M. Meely supposedly got $550K from the sale, meaning the other guy got $2.2 Million or so. That guy seems to have run out of cash, and cannot refund Shyne, the guy that flipped it to Logan Paul. Meely originally balked on returning the $550K and then it looks like his lawyer convinced him to put it in escrow to repay Shyne. Meely has a store in Gainesville FL that I visited a few years ago, but regularly posted his baseball card show transactions on social media and blowout recaps. If he cannot get the money back from the Canadian guy pokebutler, I guess he's learning an expensive lesson.

We'll see if this goes the criminal route against either Jameel or his co-buyer (or the Canadian authorities go after the maker), or whether this is fought in courtrooms over the lost cash. If the first buyers knew the case was fake when they imported it to the US, then they could be in for a mess with the FBI. But if that were the case, why pay $1 million on the off-chance that it would fool Steve? Why not just create your own fake case in the US and attempt to pass that off?

Wow. A lot of back story on this and a lot of potential risk/reward for all the wrong reasons.
The story to be continued

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Matt, to be clear I'm not defending the mistaken authentication, just saying to me it's understandable he wouldn't have known of developments leading up to the video, not like he took on some ongoing obligation to monitor Pokémon forums. After cases I work on are resolved I don't look every day for news about my clients.

To piggyback on what Jonathan shared - I think "mistaken authentication" is a really improper framing of what Steve Hart did - An incompetent, uneducated, complete lack of due dillegence authentication is closer to what I would call it. Steve took the position of subject matter expert on this - He is a "big boy" and made his own decision about that. As a self-declared "expert" he should have done enough homework (using whatever resources) to make himself at least as or close to well informed as the apparent real experts were - he did not. The rest - he was set up, he wasn't set up - to me is really irrelevant.


Irrelevant after thought - You want a plausible possibility that he wasn't set up - if the case turned out to be good and he was there, he may have been asked to either re-wrap the case or wrap the individual boxes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ironic that this forum seems to have more contempt for an honorable guy like Steve Hart who admittedly fucked up than the countless criminals trimming and otherwise altering cards, knowingly selling altered cards, knowingly GRADING altered cards, shilling auctions, knowingly selling fake memorabilia, and so forth.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ironic that this forum seems to have more contempt for an honorable guy like Steve Hart who admittedly fucked up than the countless criminals trimming cards, knowingly selling altered cards, knowingly GRADING altered cards, shilling auctions, knowingly selling fake memorabilia, and so forth.

I posted similar on the CU boards, that in a hobby full of crooks this will have no impact on BBCE. We tolerate criminals and cheats to get the best stuff, why would anyone hold a hobby good guy that made a mistake to a higher standard?

All that said, for me this make me wonder how much bad product is under BBCE wrap. Maybe we have put too much faith in their ability to authenticate product that will never be opened. I mean how hard would it really be to rewrap a pack, box or case. Clearly not that hard.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by japhi

I posted similar on the CU boards, that in a hobby full of crooks this will have no impact on BBCE. We tolerate criminals and cheats to get the best stuff, why would anyone hold a hobby good guy that made a mistake to a higher standard?

All that said, for me this make me wonder how much bad product is under BBCE wrap. Maybe we have put too much faith in their ability to authenticate product that will never be opened. I mean how hard would it really be to rewrap a pack, box or case. Clearly not that hard.

Not to excuse it, but I think it's not unusual for people in many professions eventually to get a bit of Dunning-Kruger syndrome and as a result of overconfidence, maybe cut corners or not be as diligent as they should be, or even get out over their skis in terms of taking on tasks they probably aren't qualified for.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ironic that this forum seems to have more contempt for an honorable guy like Steve Hart who admittedly fucked up than the countless criminals trimming cards, knowingly selling altered cards, knowingly GRADING altered cards, shilling auctions, knowingly selling fake memorabilia, and so forth.

For some people, stuff (that they collect) trumps everything.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Eric72

For some people, stuff (that they collect) trumps everything.

Or the price umbrella that the fraud creates makes money for them.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ironic that this forum seems to have more contempt for an honorable guy like Steve Hart who admittedly fucked up than the countless criminals trimming and otherwise altering cards, knowingly selling altered cards, knowingly GRADING altered cards, shilling auctions, knowingly selling fake memorabilia, and so forth.

Of course. The transparency of people is stunning...and not in a good way. The criminals who trim and shill are offering things most of the hobby needs. As long as you are offering them cards on they need and you can ship them quickly and affordably, it is super easy to look the other way for fraud. Steve only has value to a small part of the hobby.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Of course. The transparency of people is stunning...and not in a good way. The criminals who trim and shill are offering things most of the hobby needs. As long as you are offering them cards on they need and you can ship them quickly and affordably, it is super easy to look the other way for fraud. Steve only has value to a small part of the hobby.

I'm sorry, who is looking the other way exactly? Are you talking about certain dealers, or auction houses or what?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Of course. The transparency of people is stunning...and not in a good way. The criminals who trim and shill are offering things most of the hobby needs. As long as you are offering them cards on they need and you can ship them quickly and affordably, it is super easy to look the other way for fraud. Steve only has value to a small part of the hobby.

This is Spot On !!!! On This board a lot of guys care about the trimming and shilling. In the modern market most could give a darn less. Manny on Facebook and ebay buying have no idea about PWCC or the info on blowout.