Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[HistoricNewspapers]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I actually don't think most here question that. They question the idea that they are somehow evolved in 3 or four generations. Their superiority is of methods and science not innate. Therefore if you could magically transport a Grove to 2021 and allow him to grow up in this era he would, in all likelihood, still be a superior player because he also would benefit from these advances.

In short, players today are of COURSE superior, but they aren't genetically any different than their forerunners, so the best way to compare across eras is to compare a player to his peers and then compare the comparisons.

Where THAT falls short is, as everyone has access to today's advances it flattens the curve of greatness and reduces outliers like Ruth or possibly Grove, because today's "lesser players" have made themselves greater through modern methods, whereas the players with greater natural advantages can only improve so much.

Really has nothing to do with evolution. Population and selective breeding have produced more physically gifted and bigger players. When you have 8.5 billion people in the world to choose from compared to 2.5, it doesn't take much of a leap to see why you would have more people throwing 95+ MPH just by the that aspect alone.

When you consider that during the pre war era that the rest of the world population wasn't even used like it is in modern times(and none of the minority american population was used either), that pool of available athletes gets even more smaller.

If you take a look at the average height of a MLB pitcher from now and compare it generation by generation you will see it increasing. That isn't evolution, yet the players are indeed taller. Weight and strength have increased too and that has some aspects of nutrition and training, but height is not really something that is easily changed from what you are already programmed to be(unless maybe extreme malnourishment impedes it).

On top of the population there are many people who choose mating partners for the express purpose of producing a larger and more athletic off spring so the off spring has a better shot at scholarships and the big money contracts.

Size does matter indeed.

The median height of a pitcher in 1920 was 6 feet and 178 pounds.
The median height of a pitcher in 1960 was 6 feet 1 and 191 pounds.
The median height of a pitcher in 2000 was 6 feet 2 and 197 pounds.
The median height of a pitcher in 2019 was 6 feeet 3 and and 215 pounds.

MPH data has not always been recorded, but the the average fastball has been steadily increasing.

In 2002 the avg fastball was 88.6 MPH
In 2006 the avg fastball was 88.9 MPH
In 2008 the avg fastball was 90.1 MPH
In 2016 the avg fastball was 92.3 MPH
In 2019 the avg fastball was 93.1 MPH
In 2021 the avg fastball was 93.5 MPH

Looking at those two concrete examples of the height/weight changes, and the MPH changes, in addition to the population disparity, there is not a smidge of logic that would point to the average player in 1930 throwing anywhere near as hard as the average player in 2020, and evolution has nothing to do with it.

The size and strength of the hitters have also seen the same increase. Every hitter in the lineup can hit a home run off of a mistake. There are no weak spots where a pitcher can 'ease up'.

Baseball science plays some part in those increases in MPH, but only a part. The majority of it comes from population, more world wide players being available, and selective breeding....And no discrimination like Pre-War years.

So comparing players, when one has a weaker set of peers to be compared to, is NOT a valid comparison.

How valid can it be when Ryu has to somehow be better than everyone in the league when the AVERAGE pitcher is the same size as him and throws just as hard, and a guy from another era had to only compete against pitchers three inches smaller, 37 pounds lighter, and throwing anywhere from five to ten MPH slower on average?

Have you ever seen that photo of Nolan Ryan standing next to Randy Johnson?? He makes Ryan look like a midget. That photo alone explains everything I'm saying without the use of a single word.

This is no disrespect to the early players, because they paved the way. Ruth out homered every team in the league, not because he is that much better of a hitter than Vlad Guerroro JR, but because his environment allowed that to happen. Ruth simply could not do that today because he would have to hit 300 home runs in a season, and off of BETTER pitchers. Different environment.

People marvel at Nolan Ryan. Longevity aside, Vlad Jr. sees Nolan Ryan type stuff 'almost' every game, and most with much better command. Ryan was a freak even as late as the 1970's. Today, he is just another pitcher(again, longevity aside)...and he would be just an averaged sized pitcher too.

It isn't a dig at old time players as the respect will always be there for them. It is however a nod to players like Vlad Jr. and company who get disrespected by fans because they strike out too much, or for whatever other reason.

When players in the 1970's faced stuff like the pitchers throw today, they struck out a lot too....when facing Nolan Ryan ....there just weren't as many guys with that stuff and size in the league, and that is why Ryan was considered a circus freak back then and that is the 1970's. Imagine doing that same exercise going back to 1930.