PWCC - Sorry, Yet Again

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yeah Bob I posted everything I knew about this when the scandal first broke and Gary's name came to light, including emails I've seen and personal conversations. I don't feel like doing it again every time some skeptic pops up. I also explained why knowingly selling altered cards without disclosure, even if someone else altered them, could be mail/wire fraud.


One other point -- if the feds decide not to prosecute you, it doesn't mean they think you're innocent, necessarily. Sometimes the rules of evidence make it difficult to prove something in court even though it's clearly true, and that can factor into the decision. Prosecutors don't like to bring cases they don't view as highly likely to succeed.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah Bob I posted everything I knew about this when the scandal first broke and Gary's name came to light, including emails I've seen and personal conversations. I don't feel like doing it again every time some skeptic pops up. I also explained why knowingly selling altered cards without disclosure, even if someone else altered them, could be mail/wire fraud.


One other point -- if the feds decide not to prosecute you, it doesn't mean they think you're innocent, necessarily. Sometimes the rules of evidence make it difficult to prove something in court even though it's clearly true, and that can factor into the decision. Prosecutors don't like to bring cases they don't view as highly likely to succeed.

Yeah Peter, I remember you were one of the people posting about it, and wondered if Snowman wouldn't have to admit there might be complicity based on those circumstances alone. Just didn't know if he had come across that info before and included that in his thinking.

Also wanted to poke Snowman a bit for what he said. He's always telling others to go back and re-read what he wrote and then chastises them for not paying attention to what he said. Well this time the tables are turned and he wrote and stated something and then said he didn't. He'll probably argue with me that I'm wrong or it wasn't what he meant, at which point I'll just tell him to look up the definition of the word "thouroughly", and read his own statement again. I figured I'd help out some of those he debates a lot with by good naturedly pointing out hes not always infallible. LOL


As for the wire/mail fraud possibility, this whole issue got me thinking that the government may do nothing because they're not sure they could convict someone in the case of cards that may have been doctored. As you said, the FBI may know that some parties were purposely doctoring cards to get better grades, but may not go ahead and file any charges. They know they'd have to convince a jury, probably made up of mostly non-card collecting people, that a crime was committed. But exactly what crime was being committed?

I can easily see a defense attorney arguing and asking what mail/fraud occurred in the case of an altered card being slabbed by a TPG, and then sold on Ebay. Assuming the card was a real one to begin with, it wasn't a fake or counterfeit, so no fraud there. And it has been said many times on here that a person can do anything they want to a card they own, including trimming, soaking, erasing marks, etc., none of which is a crime of any kind. And the submission of a doctered/altered card to an independent TPG is likewise not a crime either. And the TPGs reviewing a submitted card for authenticity and grading results in their rendering an opinion as to what they believe the condition of a card is, and whether they think it authentic or not. And the key word is "opinion", because that is all a TPG gives. If they don't detect any alterations or issues with an altered card, have they committed any fraud or crime, again, no. And if that altered card is then consigned to an AH or online consignment seller, they just list and sell what is given to them and rely upon the opinion of the TPG who authenticated and graded the card, since the TPG is probably one of the respected and relied upon TPGs in the hobby. People look to their opinions as to a card's authenticity and condition, not the consignor or seller. So if the TPG says a card is real and don't detect any alterations, is it legally up to a seller/owner to say otherwise that they disagree with a TPG's opinion, I'm not so sure it is. Now it may not be viewed by some as ethically or morally right, but that doesn't mean it still may be legally okay.

And here's where I can see the prosecution having a problem convincing a jury filled with non-card collecting peers that someone committed fraud of any kind. First off, an altered card can still be authentic, so no fraud from that standpoint. Now the issue of condition and potential alteration of a card is the opinion reflected in the grade a TPG gives a card. And if you want to prove fraud, wouldn't you have to be able to prove that the TPG knowingly misgraded a card and purposely ignored alterations, probably working in union with the seller and/or consignor to knowingly dupe the public? But how do you prove such complicity between TPGs, sellers and their consignors? I sincerely doubt they'd write letters or send texts or emails to one another talking about how they are in cahoots. In fact, I can actually see the card doctors hoping some of their grading submissions do get rejected for alterations (as probably do the TPGs as well), as that makes it look all the more like the TPGs are doing their job and catching altered cards. Makes the ones not being detected all the more believable as legit, unaltered cards. So the card doctors can just consign altered cards to a seller, and maybe have the seller submit them to a TPG for grading then. Nicely helps to keep all the parties separate from one another and maybe adds an extra layer of protection then as the card doctor doesn't directly sell altered cards to unsuspecting buyers and actually mail them as well. The TPGs don't always deal directly with card doctors then if the seller handles the grading submission, or so I assume, and I'm also guessing no one in this threesome (card doctor/seller/TPG) asks or offers to tell any of the others outright if cards being consigned for sale or submitted for grading were doctored or altered. That way the seller and TPG can both have plausible deniability as to whether a card was altered or not, and the card doctor can merely say they relied on an independent TPG's opinion as to a card's condition, and left it up to the seller they consigned a card with to list and sell it as they, the seller, saw fit. Plus, think of all the other errors that TPGs routinely seem to make, especially some of the really egrgious ones that often get pointed out here on our forum. That would go a long way IMO to persuading a jury that altered cards, along with many other errors, often slip through a TPG's quality control system to wind up in improperly graded holders, but are not necessarily indicative of any illicit or illegal scheme or collusive activity to intentionally grade and slab altered cards.

And if that wasn't already enough to confuse and befuddle a jury, I'd then start pointing out to them how the issue ultimately comes down to how a card is graded, but that there isn't one overall, agreed upon set of grading and alteration standards for the entire hobby. Each TPG has their own unique way they grade and detect issues, and even those standards for individual TPGs can easily be shown to have changed over the years. And the same can be shown for individual collectors how they also have vastly different ideas of what a card should grade, and what they do or don't consider as alterations, be it soaking, erasure of marks, spooning out creases, possibly trimming oversided borders, and even full-blown restorations. Heck, I can see this restored T206 Wagner in the current SCP auction being a perfect example to show to a jury why restored cards have significant value, regardless of grade, especially if it ends up selling for more than some non-restored Wagners. And of course there's the now infamous Gretzky Wagner, still residing in an incorrect PSA 8 holder. But at the same time, if it were to suddenly come up for sale I imagine it would likely go for the highest ever price for a single baseball card of all time, easily eclipsing all the recent single card record sales that have occurred since the pandemic started. That alone could possibly sway some jurors to not find fault with other altered cards and how they end up being graded. And with all the other problems and issues we've been been going through lately, the last thing the government wants and needs is to spend a ton of time and resources on a long, drawn out trial over baseball cards, only to have it end in aquittal or a hung jury. This is definitely not the same as legal issues from shill bidding.

So I have no clue either if we ever will see charges brought for sales of alleged altered cards. Only time will tell.