Former PSA employee AMA on reddit

[slidekellyslide]

PSA is a complete shit show. It was a shit show before Nat took it over and he has somehow made it worse. My latest sub just popped and it’s a friggin joke. Besides slabbing my 1913 World Series ticket stub as a game 2 instead of what it actually is, a game 3 their grades are a joke. I’ve slabbed lots of cards over the years. 9-10s on cardboard cards are now 8s. The lone 10 I got of course was a shiny modern card. And it wasn’t just me, I subbed this with some of the best eyes in the hobby and every single member of this sub got screwed over. 400 card sub. Grader Of Death.

[bobbyw8469]

Fingers crossed you get it back.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

PSA is a complete shit show. It was a shit show before Nat took it over and he has somehow made it worse. My latest sub just popped and it’s a friggin joke. Besides slabbing my 1913 World Series ticket stub as a game 2 instead of what it actually is, a game 3 their grades are a joke. I’ve slabbed lots of cards over the years. 9-10s on cardboard cards are now 8s. The lone 10 I got of course was a shiny modern card. And it wasn’t just me, I subbed this with some of the best eyes in the hobby and every single member of this sub got screwed over. 400 card sub. Grader Of Death.

Oof. That sucks. I'm sorry to hear that. Sadly, this seems to have become the norm. I've stopped sending even my high end cards to them for now because of it. I lost over 5k in wasted grading fees last month. SGC gets all my business now. PSA's moving of the goal posts has become a serious problem. And even worse, Nat Turner is somehow under the impression that this is a false narrative and that it's just a result of new submitters not knowing what they're sending in and companies like panini with poor quality control. Until he acknowledges that this is a real problem, nothing is going to change.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Oof. That sucks. I'm sorry to hear that. Sadly, this seems to have become the norm. I've stopped sending even my high end cards to them for now because of it. I lost over 5k in wasted grading fees last month. SGC gets all my business now. PSA's moving of the goal posts has become a serious problem. And even worse, Nat Turner is somehow under the impression that this is a false narrative and that it's just a result of new submitters not knowing what they're sending in and companies like panini with poor quality control. Until he acknowledges that this is a real problem, nothing is going to change.

On the vintage side, I have seen some really inexplicably low grades.

I heard the same thing on modern from a dealer I know -- his best customer/consignor who submits LOTS of cards went from maybe a 75 to 80 percent gem rate on the new pack fresh stuff to 35 to 40 and was just beside himself.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

PSA is a complete shit show. It was a shit show before Nat took it over and he has somehow made it worse. My latest sub just popped and it’s a friggin joke. Besides slabbing my 1913 World Series ticket stub as a game 2 instead of what it actually is, a game 3 their grades are a joke. I’ve slabbed lots of cards over the years. 9-10s on cardboard cards are now 8s. The lone 10 I got of course was a shiny modern card. And it wasn’t just me, I subbed this with some of the best eyes in the hobby and every single member of this sub got screwed over. 400 card sub. Grader Of Death.

Dan -

What follows is a serious post, I am writing this from a bench in my yard, I am attempting to leave my usual snarky, sarcastic, possibly annoying self in the house, apologies if he finds me before I hit the "Submit Reply" button.

Your post is EXACTLY what I don't understand about why the opinion sellers exist. Why would "some of the best eyes in the hobby" pay somebody else for their opinion? They should be paying you guys. I understand that the resale value of the slab has become more important that the value of the item within the slab, but... really, why?

It can't just be greed, there has to be another reason, right?

Everybody on this board is at least a bit greedy, including me, but none of us (very few of us?) got into the hobby because of the piles of cash we could make. So, why is the hobby so beholden to the opinion sellers who time after time after time continue to prove that they don't really know what the fuck they are doing?

Doug

[slidekellyslide]

Doug, I suppose the easy answer is because a card inside the PSA slab is worth way more than the same card outside of that slab. I sent my cards in precisely for that reason. Clearly though the standards have changed and I believe Nat gave direct orders to be stricter on all cards, especially certain issues. You can have a great eye and try to sell a card but it’s always going to get more money inside that slab.


As a side note for more anecdotal “proof”, one of our submitters cracked three 1984 Donruss Mattinglys all PSA 9. He believed they could come back as Gem 10s. They came back as 7, 7 and 8.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Doug, I suppose the easy answer is because a card inside the PSA slab is worth way more than the same card outside of that slab. I sent my cards in precisely for that reason. Clearly though the standards have changed and I believe Nat gave direct orders to be stricter on all cards, especially certain issues. You can have a great eye and try to sell a card but it’s always going to get more money inside that slab.


As a side note for more anecdotal “proof”, one of our submitters cracked three 1984 Donruss Mattinglys all PSA 9. He believed they could come back as Gem 10s. They came back as 7, 7 and 8.

Unless they can rely on a certain percentage of 10s, people who submit large volumes of very modern cards may rethink things if their gem rates become substantially less. Maybe that's what Nat Turner wants, to become a lower volume higher dollar per card company?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Doug, I suppose the easy answer is because a card inside the PSA slab is worth way more than the same card outside of that slab. I sent my cards in precisely for that reason. Clearly though the standards have changed and I believe Nat gave direct orders to be stricter on all cards, especially certain issues. You can have a great eye and try to sell a card but it’s always going to get more money inside that slab.


As a side note for more anecdotal “proof”, one of our submitters cracked three 1984 Donruss Mattinglys all PSA 9. He believed they could come back as Gem 10s. They came back as 7, 7 and 8.

Ouch!!!

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

As a side note for more anecdotal “proof”, one of our submitters cracked three 1984 Donruss Mattinglys all PSA 9. He believed they could come back as Gem 10s. They came back as 7, 7 and 8.

Hands down, this is what sucks the most about PSA right now. The moving targets. I have about 150 or so 1986 Fleer basketball cards that are all 8s, 9s, and what historically would have been a few 10s. But after watching the goal posts get moved, it makes me not even want to submit to them anymore even if they do reopen bulk services or quarterly specials. They'd probably all come back as 7s with the recent changes. It's extremely frustrating. It's not that difficult to maintain consistency over time. It messes up the entire market too. A 2021 PSA 7 is a 2016 PSA 9 is a 2002 PSA 10.

SGC looks better and better every day.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Hands down, this is what sucks the most about PSA right now.

Right now?

May I remind you that the first opinion they ever sold is pretty much universally acknowledged to be wrong?

[mrreality68]

alot of information in this particular thread and alot to process.

Thanks all for the information and perspective

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Doug, I suppose the easy answer is because a card inside the PSA slab is worth way more than the same card outside of that slab. I sent my cards in precisely for that reason. Clearly though the standards have changed and I believe Nat gave direct orders to be stricter on all cards, especially certain issues. You can have a great eye and try to sell a card but it’s always going to get more money inside that slab.


As a side note for more anecdotal “proof”, one of our submitters cracked three 1984 Donruss Mattinglys all PSA 9. He believed they could come back as Gem 10s. They came back as 7, 7 and 8.

This was my logic as to why my cards were worth more since they were PSA graded than they were raw. However, when it came time to declare value and file the insurance claim, PSA chose to ignore their graded card value. Why not just make all cards $99 (or whatever the max value is) and be done with it.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

This was my logic as to why my cards were worth more since they were PSA graded than they were raw. However, when it came time to declare value and file the insurance claim, PSA chose to ignore their graded card value. Why not just make all cards $99 (or whatever the max value is) and be done with it.

This has always been one of the problems with TPGs giving their "opinions" on card grades, and especially with autograph authenticity, the fact that they have different charges based on perceived values of items they are looking at and not just charging based on the actual work being performed. The grading/authenticating process should be consistent and without prejudice and bias for all cards, whether they are looking at a '52 Topps Mantle or a common from the '87 Topps set. They should be doing similar work and efforts for both cards. But are they when they end up charging so much more for one card than another, it creates at least a perception of potential bias, if not also a factual one to some degree. And it is even more pronounced with autographs. Think about all the Mantle and Dimaggio autos that TPGs have authenticated over the years. Their authenticators have reviewed and handled so many of them by now they probably need do very little research to authentic such signatures, whereas someone coming in with an autographed card of some minor league player that had a cup of coffee in the majors might require a bit of research and work to actually end up verifying the signature, at a fraction of what they charge for a Mantle or Dimaggio.

At the end of the day, all the TPGs are doing is giving an "opinion", nothing else. So why do people let them get away with basically charging a contingent type fee on the supposed value of a card/autograph they are grading/authenticating? CPAs are also in the business of giving "opinions, yet the entire profession is not allowed to charge contingent fees on "anything" they do, not just in giving opinions on financials. CPAs have to maintain an unbiased, arm's length relationship with clients and can only charge for the work performed, or potentially lose their license. I would think/hope that any TPG offering grading/authenticating services would be following a somewhat similar line of thinking in being completely impartial in fact and appearence, but they are not. And the grading companies should never have been the ones to decide what the grading standards were. The people in the hobby should have gotten together and decided, and made all the TPGs follow one single, consistent set of grading standards, along with making them submit to periodic, independent, third-party review of their procedures and practices to insure they adhere to those standards or practices. But is probably too late to ever have that happen now. Too many people with too much to lose are in the card hobby industry and will not allow the risk of such a loss to them personally to happen by making such radical changes to the hobby now.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Doug, I suppose the easy answer is because a card inside the PSA slab is worth way more than the same card outside of that slab. I sent my cards in precisely for that reason. Clearly though the standards have changed and I believe Nat gave direct orders to be stricter on all cards, especially certain issues. You can have a great eye and try to sell a card but it’s always going to get more money inside that slab.


As a side note for more anecdotal “proof”, one of our submitters cracked three 1984 Donruss Mattinglys all PSA 9. He believed they could come back as Gem 10s. They came back as 7, 7 and 8.

Thank you, so it is just greed.

And your story of the resubmitted cards is further proof that the opinion sellers don't really know what the fuck they are doing.

I don't know what 1984 Mattinglys go for in a 7 slab, but I will admit that I hope it's less than 2 X submission costs...

Insert smiley face here

Doug

[slidekellyslide]

Some people may call that a good business decision and some may call that greed.

Your Schadenfreude is noted.

[Snowman]

Looks like the former PSA employee stopped answering questions and deleted his reddit account shortly after the PSA manager showed up and posted a rebuttal to some of his claims. Interesting.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Your Schadenfreude is noted.

I would argue that paying somebody for their opinion (especially in the context of REpaying somebody for their opinion), when the opinion seller has shown repeatedly that their opinions are hit or miss at the very best, is not misfortune, but is something closer to foolishness. Therefore I do not have a feeling of schadenfreude, I do however have a feeling of "they got what they deserved". Or, in the vernacular of today's youth I believe the letters SMH may suffice.