Goldin Vault

BobC · #1 07-27-2021, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I'm interested in Adam's response to my suggestion how Mastro might have been a different legal situation. A bunch of irrevocable consignments versus items more in the nature of bailments. Let's see what Adam thinks.

Peter,

That's what I was alluding to in regards to something being held in one of these "vaults", where you are technically renting space to keep something of yours in, versus just sending or consigning something to a third party to do something with on your behalf. I was aware of the Mastro-Legendary situation, but didn't think this could also apply to items legally being stored in rented spaces at PWCC or Goldin. I'd addressed an earlier post to Adam also, but he only responded to you. Probably has me on ignore. LOL

Very curious now to see what he comes back to you with because I additonally asked if this has implications then for bank safe deposit boxes, or even people's apartments.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 07-28-2021, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Peter,

That's what I was alluding to in regards to something being held in one of these "vaults", where you are technically renting space to keep something of yours in, versus just sending or consigning something to a third party to do something with on your behalf. I was aware of the Mastro-Legendary situation, but didn't think this could also apply to items legally being stored in rented spaces at PWCC or Goldin. I'd addressed an earlier post to Adam also, but he only responded to you. Probably has me on ignore. LOL

Very curious now to see what he comes back to you with because I additonally asked if this has implications then for bank safe deposit boxes, or even people's apartments.

I'm not sure you're renting a specific space in one of those vaults, as opposed to just making a bailment to the vault owner to store your cards for you. Until someone corrects my interpretation of the UCC which seems clear on its face I am standing by it in terms of consignment vs. bailment and UCC filing requirements. I do agree safety deposit boxes and storage lockers are in a different category for the reason you are obtaining righs with respect to a specific space, like a lease.

BobC · #3 07-28-2021, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I'm not sure you're renting a specific space in one of those vaults, as opposed to just making a bailment to the vault owner to store your cards for you. Until someone corrects my interpretation of the UCC which seems clear on its face I am standing by it in terms of consignment vs. bailment and UCC filing requirements. I do agree safety deposit boxes and storage lockers are in a different category for the reason you are obtaining righs with respect to a specific space, like a lease.

Believe me, I get that this is not a straightforward question with an easy, simple answer. And exactly why I was asking specific, detailed questions such as if a "vault" operator did have separate, sealed boxes or spaces where they stored a person's cards/items, instead of just putting everyone's stuff on the shelves in one big room or warehouse. Was being persistent with the questions to see if there was a particular scenario and set of circumstances from a legal standpoint where a person using a "vault" could be safe from seizure in the case of bankruptcy by the "vault" operator. And yes I know, probably a lot of people reading this stuff are wondering why should we be wasting time talking about something like this because the chances of one of these "vaults" actually going bankrupt is extremely remote. But if one of the "vault" operators is still involved with and potentially under an ongoing FBI investigation, that could possibly change the odds, right?

So in that case, if I was someone on this forum reading this, and also using such a "vault" service to hold my valuable cards/items, I may want to double check with that "vault" service to make sure they were set up and operating in such a specific manner so as to protect my valuable cards/items from such seizures. And if I found out they weren't protected, I may seriously want to look into making protective UCC filings just to be extra safe, or maybe look into doing something else entirely.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 07-28-2021, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Believe me, I get that this is not a straightforward question with an easy, simple answer. And exactly why I was asking specific, detailed questions such as if a "vault" operator did have separate, sealed boxes or spaces where they stored a person's cards/items, instead of just putting everyone's stuff on the shelves in one big room or warehouse. Was being persistent with the questions to see if there was a particular scenario and set of circumstances from a legal standpoint where a person using a "vault" could be safe from seizure in the case of bankruptcy by the "vault" operator. And yes I know, probably a lot of people reading this stuff are wondering why should we be wasting time talking about something like this because the chances of one of these "vaults" actually going bankrupt is extremely remote. But if one of the "vault" operators is still involved with and potentially under an ongoing FBI investigation, that could possibly change the odds, right?

So in that case, if I was someone on this forum reading this, and also using such a "vault" service to hold my valuable cards/items, I may want to double check with that "vault" service to make sure they were set up and operating in such a specific manner so as to protect my valuable cards/items from such seizures. And if I found out they weren't protected, I may seriously want to look into making protective UCC filings just to be extra safe, or maybe look into doing something else entirely.

Maybe Adam can shed some light on this question -- suppose your inventory in the vault is changing on a very frequent basis. Assuming a filing is necessary or helpful, and I don't read the UCC that way but let's assume, do you have to make a separate filing every time you add an "asset"? I would imagine you do, that a blanket filing wouldn't really provide notice to anyone.

BobC · #5 07-28-2021, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe Adam can shed some light on this question -- suppose your inventory in the vault is changing on a very frequent basis. Assuming a filing is necessary or helpful, and I don't read the UCC that way but let's assume, do you have to make a separate filing every time you add an "asset"? I would imagine you do, that a blanket filing wouldn't really provide notice to anyone.

And exactly why I was bringing this all up, so others on the forum would possibly have a more thorough understanding of potential issues or concerns with using such services, and therefore be able to make better, more informed decisions for themselves about them.

Peter_Spaeth · #6 07-28-2021, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

And exactly why I was bringing this all up, so others on the forum would possibly have a more thorough understanding of potential issues or concerns with using such services, and therefore be able to make better, more informed decisions for themselves about them.

Leaving aside whether there are really any legal concerns, I just wouldn't like the idea of having my cards in someone else's control hundreds or thousands of miles away, speaking as a collector of course not a flipper. It's one thing to go over to the local bank to look at your cards or take them out, quite another for them to be in Oregon or Delaware or whatever. And I wouldn't want any part of using them to avoid sales tax.

BobC · #7 07-28-2021, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Leaving aside whether there are really any legal concerns, I just wouldn't like the idea of having my cards in someone else's control hundreds or thousands of miles away, speaking as a collector of course not a flipper. It's one thing to go over to the local bank to look at your cards or take them out, quite another for them to be in Oregon or Delaware or whatever. And I wouldn't want any part of using them to avoid sales tax.

I'm with you 100%. I actually enjoy having my cards around and digging through them every now and then and re-discovering things I'd gotten a couple decades ago and had since forgotten I had.

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