M101-2 Supplements in Memory Lane

[Bliggity]

I've been putting together the M101-2 set over the past couple of years. The ones in Memory Lane certainly had great eye appeal, but I believe this is just a function of people paying crazy money for PSA plastic. A couple years ago, there were a bunch of M101-2s that sold at auction (I think PWCC, but can't remember). It was the first round of PSA-graded M101-2s that I'd seen. They were all graded PSA A. It was clear that whoever had them graded just opted for authentication and not a grade. They still sold for 3x the price of a comparable raw copy. It made no sense to me. I imagine some of it must have been driven by registry lemmings given that M101-2s in PSA holders were very scarce. But there were also some non-registry purchasers who I thought at the time just flatly overpaid for no apparent reason. Since then, PSA A and PSA 1 copies have continued to rise, and based on the Memory Lane results are now more like 5-8x the price of a nice raw copy. Meanwhile, other nice M101-2s that are raw or in BGS holders are selling for maybe 1-2x their pre-pandemic prices.

I will admit that there's not much data here, so it's hard to know exactly what's up, but it just seems to me that it's another example of people paying up for plastic. I'll pass and wait for raw copies...I hope! I have no idea why someone would want a M101-2 graded in the first place.

I also acknowledge my bias as a M101-2 set builder who would like to continue to have access to reasonably-priced examples

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Bliggity

I've been putting together the M101-2 set over the past couple of years. The ones in Memory Lane certainly had great eye appeal, but I believe this is just a function of people paying crazy money for PSA plastic. A couple years ago, there were a bunch of M101-2s that sold at auction (I think PWCC, but can't remember). It was the first round of PSA-graded M101-2s that I'd seen. They were all graded PSA A. It was clear that whoever had them graded just opted for authentication and not a grade. They still sold for 3x the price of a comparable raw copy. It made no sense to me. I imagine some of it must have been driven by registry lemmings given that M101-2s in PSA holders were very scarce. But there were also some non-registry purchasers who I thought at the time just flatly overpaid for no apparent reason. Since then, PSA A and PSA 1 copies have continued to rise, and based on the Memory Lane results are now more like 5-8x the price of a nice raw copy. Meanwhile, other nice M101-2s that are raw or in BGS holders are selling for maybe 1-2x their pre-pandemic prices.

I will admit that there's not much data here, so it's hard to know exactly what's up, but it just seems to me that it's another example of people paying up for plastic. I'll pass and wait for raw copies...I hope! I have no idea why someone would want a M101-2 graded in the first place.

I also acknowledge my bias as a M101-2 set builder who would like to continue to have access to reasonably-priced examples

Hi Dan,

I've been a coilector of the M101-2 set myself, just not paid attention much in recent year once I got 99 of the 100 supplements. And like you, I would much prefer to collect them raw, see no real need for getting them graded. i actually have two of them graded by Beckett, had in the earlier post said only one as I forgot about my 4.5 supplement of Harry Lord to go with my 1.0 supplement of Wajo/Street. A set collector is not going to worry about grading, especially when it comes to some of the double page team supplements. Don't believe any TPG has a holder for those anyway so not sure if they'd even try to grade them.

Anyway, I haven't been paying much attention to their prices for several years till I saw these ones from the ML auction this past week. Those are some insane prices, or so I thought, especially for PSA1s. I didn't even realize PSA had started grading these, any idea how long it has been? I knew Becket had been grading them all along, but never SGC for some odd reason. Still can't believe a PSA graded one would be worth that kind of a premium over a raw or Beckett graded version. It is obviously not normal set collectors, like you and I, pushing these prices, especially for just PSA1s. Unless it is a set collector(s) who want to put a PSA registry set together and figure to work on a set that no one else really has even started on yet. I guess that way they would be assured to have a top rated registry set just by having a PSA graded one when no one else has.

Just took a quick look at PSA's pop report for M101-2 supplements, and I was stunned again. They show only 102 graded supplements, in total, with none being graded higher than a 3!!!! And of the 102 graded in total, only 3 - 3s, and 4 - 2s (and of those 2s, one has a qualifier). There are 100 different supplements in the M101-2 set, and to date PSA has only graded 46 out of the 100 different supplements.

I was going to say that if it were the investors looking to buy into these M101-2s and pushing these prices so hard now, they would normally only go for the higher-end graded supplements. So why would they be spending so much on these PSA1s then? Well, based on the PSA pop report, I guess there really aren't any graded much higher. The Cobb/Wagner is one of the three highest graded, the Cobb is the second highest graded, the Jackson is one of the three highest graded, the Mathewson is one of the two highest graded, as is the Wagner also one of the two highest graded. So if some not-so-well informed investors are paying those kind of prices for M101-2s they think are literally the highest grades out there, based on PSAs current pop reports, they may be in for a surprise as I have to believe there a lot more, higher condition M101-2 supplements out there in the hands of collectors that couldn't care less about having them graded. Of course, with recent auction results like this for the M101-2 supplements, I guess that could start changing quickly.

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by BobC

Unless it is a set collector(s) who want to put a PSA registry set together and figure to work on a set that no one else really has even started on yet. I guess that way they would be assured to have a top rated registry set just by having a PSA graded one when no one else has.

Just took a quick look at PSA's pop report for M101-2 supplements, and I was stunned again. They show only 102 graded supplements, in total, with none being graded higher than a 3!!!!

So if some not-so-well informed investors are paying those kind of prices for M101-2s they think are literally the highest grades out there, based on PSAs current pop reports, they may be in for a surprise as I have to believe there a lot more, higher condition M101-2 supplements out there in the hands of collectors that couldn't care less about having them graded. Of course, with recent auction results like this for the M101-2 supplements, I guess that could start changing quickly.

Bingo. And I found the info I had been looking for before.

In June 2020, Lelands auctioned a near-complete set of 96/100. All of the main stars were included and were graded PSA A; the rest of the set was raw. This was the first time I'd seen any in PSA holders, so PSA must have just started grading them not too long before that. The set sold for $12,998.40. The buyer immediately split the set and put each of the supplements for sale individually on eBay, with BIN prices on the graded ones about 3x or more of comparable raw versions (and the raw ones were also priced about 2.5x other raw comps). I thought they would sit forever in the eBay museum, but one collector immediately bought the Jackson and Cobb/Wagner and posted them here and on other sites. He noted with pride that the Cobb/Wagner was a "POP 1" and was the first and only copy that PSA had graded. I was floored.

Since then, PSA A and 1 copies have continued to do unreasonably well. Meanwhile, around the same time I bought an absolutely beautiful Eddie Collins in BVG 4.5 for $160. BVG cards in grades 2-3ish continued to stay around $125-250 for mid-tier HOFers, while PSA 1s were sometimes pulling $300 when there were better raw or BVG copies available. And now we have a PSA 1 Jackson alone going for $12,700, which was basically the price of the entire 96/100 set that sold 13 months ago.

Unlike most other prewar cards where the highest-quality examples are already in TPG holders, 99% of the highest-quality examples of M101-2s are in raw collections, along with tons of examples that would probably grade in the 2-4 range. Whoever is buying these either has no knowledge or understanding of the series, or is a registry addict, or both. As BobC mentioned, if the people holding the 99% of the nice raw M101-2s start grading them, the people who are paying $12K for a PSA 1 Jackson and $10K for a PSA 1 Wagner are going to be hurting.

But who knows, we'll probably look at this thread in 3 years and think they got the deal of the century.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Bliggity

Bingo. And I found the info I had been looking for before.

In June 2020, Lelands auctioned a near-complete set of 96/100. All of the main stars were included and were graded PSA A; the rest of the set was raw. This was the first time I'd seen any in PSA holders, so PSA must have just started grading them not too long before that. The set sold for $12,998.40. The buyer immediately split the set and put each of the supplements for sale individually on eBay, with BIN prices on the graded ones about 3x or more of comparable raw versions (and the raw ones were also priced about 2.5x other raw comps). I thought they would sit forever in the eBay museum, but one collector immediately bought the Jackson and Cobb/Wagner and posted them here and on other sites. He noted with pride that the Cobb/Wagner was a "POP 1" and was the first and only copy that PSA had graded. I was floored.

Since then, PSA A and 1 copies have continued to do unreasonably well. Meanwhile, around the same time I bought an absolutely beautiful Eddie Collins in BVG 4.5 for $160. BVG cards in grades 2-3ish continued to stay around $125-250 for mid-tier HOFers, while PSA 1s were sometimes pulling $300 when there were better raw or BVG copies available. And now we have a PSA 1 Jackson alone going for $12,700, which was basically the price of the entire 96/100 set that sold 13 months ago.

Unlike most other prewar cards where the highest-quality examples are already in TPG holders, 99% of the highest-quality examples of M101-2s are in raw collections, along with tons of examples that would probably grade in the 2-4 range. Whoever is buying these either has no knowledge or understanding of the series, or is a registry addict, or both. As BobC mentioned, if the people holding the 99% of the nice raw M101-2s start grading them, the people who are paying $12K for a PSA 1 Jackson and $10K for a PSA 1 Wagner are going to be hurting.

But who knows, we'll probably look at this thread in 3 years and think they got the deal of the century.

Dan, Thanks for that info, was not aware of that sale last year. Based on the timing and everything else going on, yours and my thinking sounds like it may be on the money then to possibly explain how those ML auction prices got so high, people basing their purchases on the PSA registry somehow. If that is the case though, I can't believe the extremely low number of PSA graded M101-2s wouldn't make someone stop and wonder why there are so few graded on their pop report. They could do an Ebay search and easily find supplements for sale, especially Beckett graded ones in much nicer shape as you pointed out. I totally agree with you that there are likely a lot of much nicer supplements out there in private collections, but the apparent timing of PSA starting to grade them only recently, coupled with the pandemic and the PSA grading backlogs and delays, have possibly worked to keep the pop report numbers for these so low, at least for now. With those prices realized in the ML auction I've got to believe it was noticed by others as well, and it will be interesting to see if the number of PSA graded M101-2s starts to jump in the coming months.

The big question then, as you alluded to, is if others do start getting many more of these supplements graded by PSA, what is the impact on future prices. I feel these ML auction prices are ridiculousy high for the grades, and conventional wisdom would make one think that if they bring more M101-2s out for grading that are in much nicer condition that will have a negative impact on the pricing/value of these PSA1 graded supplements. But as we've seen over the past year or so, conventional wisdom on pricing has gone out the window, and it is possible that the new collectors/money that appear to be the main culprits behind the price surges during this pandemic may view these ML auction prices this past week as a new starting point for M101-2 prices going forward. In which case, if higher graded PSA examples of these supplements start hitting the market, we may see prices going even higher. I guess only time will tell.

By the way Dan, love how you have your M101-2 collection raw and in the binders. Have mine the same way with one of those rigid comic/magazine backing pieces in each page to support the supplements so they don't accidently get bent or creased. What do you do for the the double page team supplements then, just leave them folded over in the binder page then?

One thing did strike me as odd though. This Newman collection had so many high graded examples of unbelievable cards, I couldn't believe he would have been satisfied collecting only PSA1 condition M101-2s, and can't believe he couldn't have found nicer examples. Newman clearly had an eye for condition and quality so you would expect he would know those M101-2s wouldn't have graded well had he originally bought them raw. Maybe that is another factor that played into the amazing prices those sold for. If bidders saw how high-end the rest of his collection was, they may have assumed that those M101-2s he had were also among the best examples in the hobby as well, and bid accordingly, despite them all being only PSA1s.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out going forward. Now if PSA would just start grading S74 silks as well...........

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by BobC

By the way Dan, love how you have your M101-2 collection raw and in the binders. Have mine the same way with one of those rigid comic/magazine backing pieces in each page to support the supplements so they don't accidently get bent or creased. What do you do for the the double page team supplements then, just leave them folded over in the binder page then?

Thanks Bob! I just use regular clear document holders that fit in a 3-ring binder. Then I found some nice, acid-free 8x11" cardstock pages in a nice chocolate color that matches the supplements. I put one cardstock page in each holder and then put the supplements on the front and back, so 2 per page. They sit nicely without any help, so they're not attached to the cardstock in any way. I only have one of the double-page team supplements so far, and I haven't figured out how I'm going to include it yet. If I can wrap the center seam around the edge of the cardstock so that the front and back show on opposite sides of the page without damaging the supplement, I'll probably end up doing that.

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Agreed. I don't even understand the registry addict element either, unless the object is to just have a set registered regardless of grade.

I think that's the entire point...grade doesn't matter, so long as you have a higher set ranking than the next guy! And with so few graded, you can grab that top ranking with a bunch of As and 1s.

Beautiful Bresnahan, BTW! I'm still missing that one.

[puckpaul]

Wait until they start grading my M101-1s!!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by puckpaul

Wait until they start grading my M101-1s!!

No kidding, if PSA grading did this to the M101-2 prices, can only imagine the impact on the M101-1s.

Now if I can only get them to start grading S74 silks........

[Rhotchkiss]

Just commenting to say that image of Bresnahan is awesome- what a bad ass pic

He kinds looks like Ray Consella’s dad at the end of Field of Dreams

[VintageBen]

What do you think that does to the PC805 and PC796 which have same images as M101-2?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Bliggity

Thanks Bob! I just use regular clear document holders that fit in a 3-ring binder. Then I found some nice, acid-free 8x11" cardstock pages in a nice chocolate color that matches the supplements. I put one cardstock page in each holder and then put the supplements on the front and back, so 2 per page. They sit nicely without any help, so they're not attached to the cardstock in any way. I only have one of the double-page team supplements so far, and I haven't figured out how I'm going to include it yet. If I can wrap the center seam around the edge of the cardstock so that the front and back show on opposite sides of the page without damaging the supplement, I'll probably end up doing that.



I think that's the entire point...grade doesn't matter, so long as you have a higher set ranking than the next guy! And with so few graded, you can grab that top ranking with a bunch of As and 1s.

Beautiful Bresnahan, BTW! I'm still missing that one.

Hey Dan,

Ahhh, so chocolate colored cardstock pages, was wondering what you were using. I do the exact same thing with the white cardstock pages I got at a comic book store. The supplements fit nice and snug with no holders or adhesives needed, so like you, I have them front and back, two to a page also. As for the double page team photos, I do just what you suggested and have them folded around the cardstock piece and just slip the whole thing into the plastic page holder. That way when you get to the page with a team photo, you see the left side of the team photo on the front, and then the right side of the team photo when you turn it over to the back of the page. Since these double page team photos were originally folded over to begin with, I figured it was no big deal to display this way. I just made sure the edge of the cardstock they are folded around doesn't have a hard, sharp edge to cut into the supplement. You also want to make sure the cardstock piece for these isn't real tight inside the plastic binder and is a little narrower than the plastic binder page itself. That way the supplement doesn't get pushed up real tight against the edge of the cardstock it is folded around and tear. These M101-2s are over 100 years old and made of very fragile paper, so once I got these double page team photos in their binder pages, I leave them alone in the binder and never take them out of their pages and handle them directly, so as not to accidently tear them along the folds, which can be easily done if you're not careful. And if you are like me and display them in your binders in chronological order by their issue dates, you'll be happy to know it works out perfectly so all the double page supplements end up on their own page so you don't have to leave a gap and miss putting a supplement on the back of any pages.


Hey Todd,

And as for the PSA set registry, they haven't even graded half the 100 different M101-2s that are in the set yet. So if I had the inclination, and wanted to waste the money on grading fees, I could send my almost complete set of M101-2s into PSA for grading, and have the de facto #1 M101-2 registry set in the world. Unless someone else with a little nicer condition set has already got theirs in the PSA grading line ahead of me.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Bliggity

Unlike most other prewar cards where the highest-quality examples are already in TPG holders, 99% of the highest-quality examples of M101-2s are in raw collections, along with tons of examples that would probably grade in the 2-4 range. Whoever is buying these either has no knowledge or understanding of the series, or is a registry addict, or both. As BobC mentioned, if the people holding the 99% of the nice raw M101-2s start grading them, the people who are paying $12K for a PSA 1 Jackson and $10K for a PSA 1 Wagner are going to be hurting.

Agreed. I don't even understand the registry addict element either, unless the object is to just have a set registered regardless of grade. Presumably any m101-2 premium submitted will garner at least a PSA 1 so long as it is intact and not colored. I always thought that registry geeks picked up 1's only as fillers, and usually when the subject was so scarce that you buy when you can and hope to upgrade. These are simply not that scarce.

The whole thing just looks like another PSA boondoggle--although I'm sure they will keep laughing all the way to the bank. They are just now grading these and have not set realistic standards--perhaps not any known standards. As registry addicts toss hundreds/thousands of dollars in grading fees to slab these premiums, there will be the usual battles over less attractive examples that somehow find their way into a PSA 5 or 6 holder commanding large dollars while many PSA 1s look no different to the eye, and then "experts" will grapple with explaining why the "technical grade" is so disparate.

And so it goes. Just another pecker-measuring contest in the works.

Here's one of my favorites-- the light swirls in the sky to the left of his head are found on all Bresnahans, who was the first premium issued in the m101-2 set:

[BobC]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Agreed. I don't even understand the registry addict element either, unless the object is to just have a set registered regardless of grade. Presumably any m101-2 premium submitted will garner at least a PSA 1 so long as it is intact and not colored. I always thought that registry geeks picked up 1's only as fillers, and usually when the subject was so scarce that you buy when you can and hope to upgrade. These are simply not that scarce.

The whole thing just looks like another PSA boondoggle--although I'm sure they will keep laughing all the way to the bank. They are just now grading these and have not set realistic standards--perhaps not any known standards. As registry addicts toss hundreds/thousands of dollars in grading fees to slab these premiums, there will be the usual battles over less attractive examples that somehow find their way into a PSA 5 or 6 holder commanding large dollars while many PSA 1s look no different to the eye, and then "experts" will grapple with explaining why the "technical grade" is so disparate.

And so it goes. Just another pecker-measuring contest in the works.

Here's one of my favorites-- the light swirls in the sky to the left of his head are found on all Bresnahans, who was the first premium issued in the m101-2 set:

Todd,

Definitely agree with what you're saying. Will be interesting to see what happens going forward for sure.

And love that Bresnahan image and pose. This entire set has some unbelievable images in it. Always felt it was way underappreciated.

[Joshheckathorn]

I know I was blown away when I saw those prices. Just a couple months ago I posted a Jackson and Wagner for sale here on the board, and never had an inquiry on either. The prices were 1500 for the Jackson and 1000 for the Wagner. I ended up selling eBay after they sat for a while. I guess I should of held out and put a psa case on them for somebody to want them.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Joshheckathorn

I know I was blown away when I saw those prices. Just a couple months ago I posted a Jackson and Wagner for sale here on the board, and never had an inquiry on either. The prices were 1500 for the Jackson and 1000 for the Wagner. I ended up selling eBay after they sat for a while. I guess I should of held out and put a psa case on them for somebody to want them.

Sorry to hear that. Kind of what some of us were saying as to how we can't understand the auction prices for these, especially for PSA1 grades. I hope you actually did better on Ebay than what you were asking for on the BST, but am going to guess not.

Here's something to consider though, with those crazy auction prices and PSA's higher fees now, what would you have to pay to get one of these M101-2s graded by them now, especially for a Cobb, Wagner or Jackson? Would also guess that if someone was going to get M101-2s graded, they are likely sticking to the big names and HOFers as opposed to the common players. I don't think those commons will see the same meteoric rise in prices like the Cobb, Wagner, and Jackson supplements.