Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by Tabe

I would definitely take Clemens. Clemens averaged more WAR per year (5.78 vs 5.05 for Pedro, ignoring Pedro's 2-game first season) while pitching 7 more seasons (24 vs 17, again ignoring 1992 for Pedro). And his best WAR year (1997 - 11.9) was better than Pedro's (2000 - 11.7). And, finally, Clemens averaged 205 IP for 24 years, while Pedro averaged 165 for 17.

But if you're using WAR, looking at it per innings pitched (rather than per season) is the best indicator. And Pedro bests all those guys there.

Clemens' overall career is highly underappreciated though, and may very well be the best of all time (ignoring the steroids, obviously). But in additoin to that, I think he's also overlooked because he probably doesn't have that signature hallmark stat or moment.

No bloody sock, no all time strikeout king crown or standout lifetime ERA numbers (again, people need to look at ERA+ a lot more). He was just exceptional, but not the best, at pretty much everything. But that's not as exciting as Nolan Ryan throwing 108 mph.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

But if you're using WAR, looking at it per innings pitched (rather than per season) is the best indicator. And Pedro bests all those guys there.

Thing is, innings pitched is a skill. Throwing 40 extra innings every year - and 7 extra seasons - is a monstrous gap to overcome. If all we care about is WAR per inning then you end up with some closer getting ranked highly.

I do agree with the guy above saying Pedro's 1.74 vs Roger's 3.70 for ERA might be the most amazing pitching accomplishment ever.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Thing is, innings pitched is a skill. Throwing 40 extra innings every year - and 7 extra seasons - is a monstrous gap to overcome. If all we care about is WAR per inning then you end up with some closer getting ranked highly.

I do agree with the guy above saying Pedro's 1.74 vs Roger's 3.70 for ERA might be the most amazing pitching accomplishment ever.

Closers wouldn't have to be included in any comparison of starting pitchers at all. I don't know where that even came from. Naturally WAR/inning is a similar ratio concept to someone's ERA, and it's not like anyone would dismiss ERA as a factor for ranking starting pitchers (nor should they, just because it's a ratio that can be applied to any pitcher). You just dismiss relievers' participation in that discussion.

The rest is once again the dominance or talent vs longevity and durability argument that's somewhat subjective. I'm fine with people preferring Johnson, Maddux, or Clemens to Pedro because of it (or even considering them "better", though I'd disagree).

But that doesn't mean that Pedro still can't be considered the most talented or effective pitcher of them all. Especially if you value outs and winning more than innings as a "skill"

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

But if you're using WAR, looking at it per innings pitched (rather than per season) is the best indicator. And Pedro bests all those guys there.

Clemens' overall career is highly underappreciated though, and may very well be the best of all time (ignoring the steroids, obviously). But in additoin to that, I think he's also overlooked because he probably doesn't have that signature hallmark stat or moment.

No bloody sock, no all time strikeout king crown or standout lifetime ERA numbers (again, people need to look at ERA+ a lot more). He was just exceptional, but not the best, at pretty much everything. But that's not as exciting as Nolan Ryan throwing 108 mph.

Let’s hit the nail on the head here - Roger Clemens career AFTER Boston was “saved” by steroids - case closed! Anyone trying to dispute that fact is outright fooling themselves. His obvious steroid use when he went to Toronto immediately resulted in 2 consecutive pitching triple crowns & he undoubtedly continued using PEDs the remainder of his career. Like many others including Bonds, a total “cheater” w/zero integrity and tainted career numbers. I do believe his performance in Boston was good enough to earn him HOF stature, but his rank on an all-time list will forever be clouded w/ambiguity due to his post-Boston excessive steroid use. An outright lier (that congressional hearing was a joke - “I think my friend Mr. Pettitte Mis-remembered????”); a cheat; & a fraud.