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#1
07-01-2019, 02:11 PM
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BobC
First of all I am usually wrong at this technical law stuff, it seems. At first I believed the way you do. Now I don't. I see the pattern of fraud. What more can I say? As for the Mastro Wagner trimming, according to what I read he went to jail in part, for doing it. It was mail fraud or at least part of the plea deal. This is posted on the United States Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois website, concerning the Wagner. (btw, It is me with the erasers, I love them.) "The T206-series Wagner card is considered one of the world’s most expensive trading cards. Mastro admitted in the plea agreement that he cut the card’s side borders, and then concealed this information when he sold the card in 1987. Mastro again failed to disclose his alteration even after participating in subsequent auctions of the card in 1991 and 2000. The sale in 2000 produced a purchase price of more than $1 million, according to the plea agreement. Mastro also failed to disclose that he cut the Wagner card again in 1992, even though he was aware that the card had been submitted to become the first baseball card assigned a grade based on the condition of the card." .
__________________
Leon Luckey www.luckeycards.com Last edited by Leon; 07-01-2019 at 03:46 PM. Reason: clarification 
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#2
07-01-2019, 02:20 PM
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If you knowingly altered a card and took steps to hide that alteration and then sold your card to a buyer while marketing it as anything other than altered, you are defrauding the person you're selling your card to.
Alter your cards any way you want to, just make it clear what you've done at the time of sale and nobody takes issue with that. Any person who brings up the art world re: conservation or restoration is missing the very basic and ultimately most important aspect of that kind of restoration: it is disclosed to everyone. Last edited by packs; 07-01-2019 at 02:28 PM.
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#3
07-01-2019, 02:31 PM
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Bob C- with regard to all the detective work the blowout forum did, I think every card in their before/after comparisons were altered. There were no examples, to my memory, of cards that were merely resubmitted and got a bump. They showed the diagnostic points that were changed by the card doctors. Maybe that's a small point based on your comprehensive post, but wanted to point it out.
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#4
07-01-2019, 06:10 PM
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I don't disagree with you at all. All I was getting at was that we unfortunately do not have a standard, agreed upon set of grading standards that all TPGs follow, nor do they submit to independent third party peer reviews to ensure that they are following and executing all the required tests and applying all the standards in a consistent and proper manner, nor will they unless and until the collecting/hobby community can get together and make them, or force them out of business for not complying. And without a set and agreed upon set of standards and testing, I can see it being argued by attorneys that some card doctor has technically not done anything wrong. I also stated that I agree there is definitely something wrong with the tremendous amount of submissions being listed and all the scans the Blowout guys have found and put out for people to see. I tip my hat to them for all their detective work and we both know there are tons of doctored/altered cards included in those lists. Now is every single card in those lists doctored/altered, I honestly don't know. And I don't believe (I could be wrong) that the Blowout guys have found before and after scans for every suspect card in those listings. And that is part of the problem. If you try to accuse someone of doing that many altered/doctored cards and in going through the lists you start finding more and more that you can't definitively prove were altered in some manner, it starts to eat away at your claim and accusations to some extent. Plus, I have to believe that in a lot of cases, these card doctors are not always so successful in their attempts to improve a card. In such instances, they probably just submit the cards to whatever TPG will grade it and push them out to get as much cash as they can to go back and buy other cards to try their luck on again. And those before and after scans the Blowout guys found are definitely damning evidence, but again, we've often mentioned on here about variances and issues with scans and differences that can occur. A good attorney would likely argue that some of the issues and such may be due to scanning issues/differences. Also, just because the Blowout guys find scans that show similar marks on supposedly the same card graded twice and bumped up with the second grading, doesn't mean that there couldn't actually be others of those exact same cards with the same, similar marks on them. So what would happen if in court a defense attorney presented ungraded cards that were the same as ones being questioned as having been altered and resubmitted for grading as evidence, and they also showed the same or similar marking as the cards in question? So then the argument could be that the two scans were possibly not of the exact same card after all and that just because two graded cards had some similar markings, it didn't definitely prove they were in fact the exact same cards. If a card doctor can remove something, can't they also possibly add something to make two separate cards look more alike? Probably not as easy, but still possible. I'm with you and pretty confident these cards are being doctored and resubmitted, but then again like you, I've been collecting and handling cards a long time and think I'm somewhat experienced in regards to what is and isn't acceptable and probable. However, if selected for jury duty, the chances of you or I being allowed to remain on that jury by the defense counsel is about as good as the chances of a snowball surviving in hell! Have a good one.
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#5
07-01-2019, 07:21 PM
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But most of the marks are actually dark fibers within the cardstock itself. They're a remnant of the papermaking process, and the odds of one piece of paper having nearly identical dark fibers in the exact same locations would be incredible. Could it happen? I suppose it can't be scientifically ruled out. Could it happen over and over again and pretty much only on cards that have passed through one particular person? I'm willing to call that one a NO. The modern cards they began with were serial numbered, which is pretty much certain. Unless the companies make two identical groups of numbered inserts, there is /was at least one Fleer basketball 1/1 that two examples were found. One was fleers file or backup copy that was bought in the auction.
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#6
07-01-2019, 08:47 PM
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And Peter, I also agree with you that what is being done is wrong and illegal, and please don't think I don't realize that. The amount of evidence seems absolutely insane and the coincidental and hard evidence seems so overwhelming that most would found it hard not to convict the people involved of some level of fraud, at the least. And you are absolutely right that if it does go that far, the prosecution will go after and obtain much, much more information in their case. But that is where it gets even more interesting in that what will that information end up showing? Based on what little we've really seen so far, who exactly does everyone think is truly at fault? Obviously the card doctor(s) are the primary targets, but what about all the other parties involved, sellers, TPGs, dealers, they all have benefited and profited from the exploits of these card doctors it seems. To what level, they did or did not know about the exploits of these card doctors, or should have known, could be devastating. How many times have I seen and read threads where someone mentions contacting these sellers, dealers and TPGs to warn them about the nefarious exploits of these card doctors, shillers, and on and on. And then there are the follow-up posts where everyone complains about how it ends up being business as usual and nothing is ever done. So if something concrete finally does come from this latest issue, what can these dealers, sellers and TPGs use for a defense, they didn't know and/or no one ever told them about such possible issues and problems? If evidence eventually does come out to prove that others besides the card doctors themselves were in on this, hopefully the others involved can't just hide behind such a statement that they didn't know and everyone gives them a free pass. It seems almost implausible that if the level, extent and duration of these various issues and antics have been going on involving all the current participants for as long as they have, how could any one of the major players and participants in all this not know about what was going on and be complicit on some level? You've been diligent and at the forefront in bringing and keeping this issue at the forefront for everyone, and I commend you for that as well. And then if there does come a major case and blow-up of the collecting hobby and system as we now know it, and the added fallout and impact spills over onto the Registry itself to where that implodes as well, the potential negative affect in values and people's collections could be unbelievably detrimental. Which is why you may call me stupid if you like, but for a lot of people with valuable collections that stand to lose a lot if the worst case scenario comes out of all this, they may want to be quiet and not say another word about any of this and hope it all does go away and that things continue on as they are. And that probably includes a lot of people on this forum. I've been at the office too long and am going home. You guys all have a nice night and lets hope this whole situation can find some resolution that works out best for the hobby as a whole. Only wish I knew what it was. And thank God I basically only collect lower-end stuff and have never gone for the high-end graded items over the years.
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#7
07-01-2019, 08:57 PM
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__________________
Four phrases I have coined that sum up today's hobby: No consequences. Stuff trumps all. The flip is the commoodity. Animal Farm grading. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-01-2019 at 09:18 PM.
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#8
07-01-2019, 05:14 PM
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I'm with you Leon, you can see the patterns of fraud. I'm also not an attorney, just an accountant, but I've learned and seen over the years how what you think may be a slam dunk isn't necessarily the case when you start pulling out all the facts. Plus, if you try to convict someone criminally you'll need to get a jury of peers, and I doubt if any defense attorney would allow such a jury to get stacked with card collectors who have much knowledge, and opinions, about this. That is where I can see all the vague standards and inconsistent opinions that our hobby has in regards to alterations and restorations can work to benefit card doctors. The TPGs have set themselves up as so-called experts in our hobby, and in so doing, have become integral into the valuation of the little pieces of cardboard we like to collect. But who exactly gave them this designation and power, unfortunately the collecting community did by buying into their claims and services. Initially it was because of the need to get some safety from the "wild west" that used to exist in buying on the internet and not knowing how you may be getting ripped off by an unreputable dealer claiming something was what it was not. I think the original idea was to at least make sure something being purchased online was real, and not so much in such a high grade. That was where/when the "buy the card, not the holder" mantra made its appearance. To his day I still hear some collectors saying to forget about the TPGs givings grades, just guarantee the card is authentic and they can grade it themselves. Then as the idea of the registry started climbing, along with the prices for highly-graded cards taking off, that part of the grading system took over to driving the hobby and has gotten us to where it is now. I also am aware that Mastro had to allocute to what was done to the Wagner card, but if I remember correctly, that is not the integral charge he got sentenced for, it was the shill bidding. You and I may find it abhorrent that the card was cut from from a strip in modern time and that it was never put into an actual pack of cigarettes and issued back in 1909 or so. But think about this, you have a jury of people who are not knowledgeable collectors and a defense attorney argues and asks that despite the fact the card had been cut from a strip in more recent years, is the card still not in fact an authentic T-206 Wagner card. And the answer is yes. He/she then asks if all the original T-206 cards had not also been printed in sheets and/or strips originally and then been cut from those at one time or another, and again the answer is yes. So he/she then asks, if it is possible that this one Wagner card was cut from such a strip long after the original issuance of these cards in cigarette packs in 1909, how do you know that none of the other ones that exist in the hobby out there today were not also cut from a strip or sheet long after their original issuance in cigarette packs? And if even so, the defense attorney may also argue what difference does it really make then, it is an authentic T-206 Wagner card. He/she could then go on about strip cards and how pretty much all cards are printed in sheets and then cut from them. Over the years people have found and purchased uncut sheets of cards, and likely more than once or twice have cut the cards out hoping to then submit them for high grades to TPGs. Do the TPGs have a way to really catch those and declare them as altered or trimmed? You and I both know the answer to that and if there are possibly any such graded cards out in the hobby today that were likely cut from a sheet long after they were originally to have been issued in packs. But can we prove it, and maybe more importantly, can we also definitively prove which ones in the hobby are or are not cut from sheets after they were supposed to have been??? So if all those technically trimmed cards may be floating around in the hobby, and no one seems to really care because they are authentic, exactly what is wrong with what was done in regards to the T-206 Wagner? Especially when they then ask the current owner to testify what he paid for the card and what he has been offered for it. As a jurist, exactly what harm can you accuse the person who cut that Wagner card from the strip of when the value has increased so much over the years. Exactly who was harmed??? You and I could then testify that because the Wagner card was not issued in a cigarette pack like it should have been over 100 years ago that to a collector/hobby purist its intrinsic value has been diminished, and the defense attorney will ask the stenographer to go back and re-read the testimony of the card's current owner as to what he paid for it and what he has since been offered for it. See the dilemma? There are different people/collectors with many differing thoughts and opinions on what constitutes alterations and what is and is not acceptable. Until we can get a unified group/organization, independent of the various TPGs and their diverse grading standards and systems, to establish a single, uniform set up grading standards and rules and to force the TPGs to adhere to that unified grading system and subject themselves to outside independent review to assure they are actually performing their grading services in compliance with those standards, we'll always have uncertainty and differences in the collecting community. And because of that, it will always be hard to accuse someone of doing something illegal if there is no set standards or rules to be followed in the first place. And the chances of the TPGs allowing someone else to tell them what to do.................good luck with that! And I did know you had posted about art gum erasers, and don't disagree with you at all. But there are others that think that is totally wrong and considered altering a card to erase such pencil marks. And just like that difference among collectors in regards to erasing pencil marks, you'll find differences of opinion among collectors about whether or not they have an issue with a card being cut and put in a pack, or if it was later on cut from a sheet or strip. It is still the same card, same paper, same printing ink and process! And if I was a defense attorney, I could also see arguing what is the difference then say in regards to the cards of the Black Swamp find? They were supposed to have been distributed and given out with candy back in the very early 1900's, but instead, some store owner never distributed them and left them in a box in their attic for about 100 years. So someone could argue that they were never issued as they were originally intended to either, but it obviously hasn't had a negative impact on their value. Granted, the ones that have been sold so far were then graded and labeled as part of the Black Swamp find, so I guess that could be construed as giving notice to potential buyers that they were never issued as they should have been. But what about those ones that were not graded and sold? I was under the understanding that not all of the heirs decided to sell their cards and that some asked to have their share of the cards given to them. So if one of them was to later on go to sell one of their cards and not have it graded and marked as part of the Black Swamp find, would they technically be guilty of not having properly disclosed that the card was not issued/distributed properly when it should have been? And I still guess the biggest issue is whether or not there is actually a written/stated law somewhere that specifically says that selling an altered/trimmed/ restored baseball card is illegal, or that you have to state such when selling it. For now, sellers/dealers have relied upon the TPGs to do the independent grading and authenticating of cards, which the TPGs have claimed an expertise for and that the hobby community has blindly believed and bought into for years. And if the hobby community is shown to almost totally rely solely upon these TPGs for this service (ie: "buy the holder, not the card"), if they grade and authentic a card, then that is apparently what the hobby community is agreeing to as the standard and determining factor of a card's authenticity. So if in that case a TPG looks at a card that does not in their opinion appear to be altered/restored/trimmed, even if it actually may have been altered in some miniscule manner like erasing an errant pencil mark, the hobby community has more or less always gone along with the TPGs opinion and believes that if no alteration/restoration is detectable, then none actually occurred. Of course then you can start arguing about degrees of alteration. So if you erase a real light pencil mark and no one can tell, some might say that is okay, but removing a crease by manipulating the cardboard in some manner that does not effect the thickness/dimensions of a card, even if you still can't detect the alteration, some might then say that is not. Look at the S-74 silks. They were originally all folded when put into cigarette packs, and the white version ones with the paper advertising still attached to the backs all pretty much came with folds in them. And SGC generally down grades them because of the creases. But is that proper and correct since that is the way they were virtually all distributed in packs? And then what about the very rare few ad-backed silks that don't show any creases? It could reasonably be argued that if there was no crease in the paper backing that the silk was likely never inserted into a pack and that maybe someone working at one of the the factories just took a few home, and that is how some have survived to this day. In that case those were never distributed properly in the same manner as they should have been, so should we downgrade those and consider them as something not as originally issued also. And don't get me started on the colored version silks. They would have also been folded over when put into the cigarette packs, yet you often see them without creases. So is ironing a silk to remove the crease considered an alteration also??? See how nit-picky this can get and you can start splitting hairs as to what is and isn't allowable. And you'll never get everyone to agree on everything 100%. Thus, without some independent party/body to oversee the hobby and set the standards that everyone ends up following, even if they don't all agree with them 100%, you'll always have trouble going after people for things they do.
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#9
07-01-2019, 05:36 PM
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I am an attorney and to me it's quite simple (only responding to one of Bob's many points). If you do something to a card that if the TPG knew it would not assign the card a numerical grade, submit it with the intent of deceiving the TPG into assigning the altered card a numerical grade, and then sell it in the TPG holder without disclosing the deceptive alteration, that is textbook fraud. And if you do that repeatedly using the mails and/or wires, that's mail and/or wire fraud in violation of federal statutes. Never mind the red herring that there is no statute specifically discussing baseball cards. Never mind the red herring about lack of complete hobby consensus. Never mind the red herring about needing a conspiracy involving the TPG. Never mind the red herring about the Wagner being sheet cut. If you're interested this has been discussed ad nauseum in many other threads and other than giving this summary I am not debating it yet again, sorry but I just don't have the patience.
__________________
Four phrases I have coined that sum up today's hobby: No consequences. Stuff trumps all. The flip is the commoodity. Animal Farm grading. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-01-2019 at 05:41 PM.
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#10
07-01-2019, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
I get you and understand. Thanks.
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#11
07-01-2019, 06:23 PM
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Don't forget that if in the unlikely event this went as far as a trial, the prosecution will have access to lots more than Blowout scans, including emails, texts, purchase records, submission records, and more. Not to mention testimony. I don't think the fundamental facts are in serious doubt here or that there would be any problems of proof.
__________________
Four phrases I have coined that sum up today's hobby: No consequences. Stuff trumps all. The flip is the commoodity. Animal Farm grading. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-01-2019 at 06:24 PM.
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#12
07-01-2019, 06:28 PM
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If there are no victims either because all paid back (or able to re-sell the card for more money to someone that knows what happened and doesnt care) or wont step forward then its still a non starter. Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 07-01-2019 at 06:28 PM.
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#13
07-01-2019, 06:54 PM
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Let me discuss my thoughts on one of Bob's points. And thanks Bob for your thorough and detailed posts.
Third party grading came into being a few decades ago offering services that included authenticating baseball cards, determining if they were original or altered, and giving them an unbiased grade. Obviously, these were services that the baseball card industry badly needed. Truth be told, they were no better at grading cards than the average veteran collector- there was no secret formula they devised to get it right- and what's been believed for many years and demonstrated in detail recently, they didn't really have the skills or equipment to detect card alterations. They were at least able to offer an unbiased opinion, as they were neither buying or selling the card, and they were able to heat seal the cards in slabs. So they had something to offer the public. Given their mediocre results, they shouldn't have lasted very long. But just the opposite occurred: they attained a position of tremendous power in the industry, to the point that the baseball card hobby couldn't survive without them. And although the grading was sloppy and inconsistent, the number they put on that label became sacrosanct. So much so that if a baseball card was graded at the highest level, it would consistently set world's records at auction. Prices for these cards have been simply astronomical. Now there are genuinely rare artifacts that are worth world's record prices. But a baseball card that has been misgraded or altered to appear better than it is should not be one of them. So how has this market survived in this manner? That's the great question and we know that collectors don't all agree on why this phenomenon has occurred. One thing, however, that the grading services have been able to do incredibly well is make money for their customers and themselves. As has been often said, they literally mint money. And unfortunately we know that card doctor's and fraudsters have been among the beneficiaries of it all. So maybe the great skill that TPG's have is not grading or authenticating, but making lots of people very wealthy. As such, I don't think we are going to see much change at all in the industry. Sure, a bunch of collectors may drop out or cut back their purchases, but as long as TPG's continue to mint money, nothing at all is going to change.
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#15
07-01-2019, 07:10 PM
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__________________
Four phrases I have coined that sum up today's hobby: No consequences. Stuff trumps all. The flip is the commoodity. Animal Farm grading. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-01-2019 at 07:10 PM.
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