OMG Blowout list of suspected trimmed modern cards

pokerplyr80 · #1 06-16-2019, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would agree to an extent. With the exception of references to cards already identified as trimmed by clear photo evidence, it's a list of SUSPECTED cards. Merely appearing on the list is not proof a card was altered. Depending on your point of view, there could be a presumption, although at this point that would not get one over the more likely than not threshold in a lawsuit and so it's more of an opinion/personal judgment. At the very least, though, it's certainly a red flag that anyone with cards on the list should -- if they care -- take proactive measures to further assess those cards. In my opinion, very valuable information for the collecting community.

I'd say this is the first time in a while we are in complete agreement. If I'm reading that thread correctly many of the cards in question aren't even alleged to be altered, just bumped successfully at too high a rate to be considered legitimate. Well I certainly believe that's possible, and even likely, that alone is not proof.

If anything this shows how small the difference in the actual quality of the card between a 9, 9.5, 10, or black label is and how absurd the price difference is. A card in any one of those 4 holders would not look out of place in any other, most of the time.

I would be surprised if people hadn't figured out a way to exploit this. Way too much money at stake for a grader making whatever they make not to try to cash in.

calvindog · #2 06-16-2019, 01:30 PM

Interesting that the only grading company which appears to have some evidence of crooked graders is Beckett.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 06-16-2019, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Interesting that the only grading company which appears to have some evidence of crooked graders is Beckett.

The BGS 10 (how the bleep can a card or subgrade be better than gem mint) and the Black Label thing certainly create a huge potential for BS.

oldjudge · #4 06-16-2019, 01:46 PM

Why is anyone surprised by this? If a card is available in a 9 and the bump from a 9 to a 10 is many multiples I would be shocked if this didn�t happen. The idiots paying the multiples for a barely discernible change are fueling this. They are getting what they should expect. It doesn�t make it right, but it is none-the-less inevitable.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 06-16-2019, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Why is anyone surprised by this? If a card is available in a 9 and the bump from a 9 to a 10 is many multiples I would be shocked if this didn�t happen. The idiots paying the multiples for a barely discernible change are fueling this. They are getting what they should expect. It doesn�t make it right, but it is none-the-less inevitable.

A Beckett 9.5 is already GEM mint. What on earth is a 10 then?

pokerplyr80 · #6 06-16-2019, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A Beckett 9.5 is already GEM mint. What on earth is a 10 then?

I don't collect many modern cards but one I follow is the 89 ud Griffey. A card with 2 9.5 sub grades and 2 10s (gem mt vs pristine) is still a 9.5 worth around 500 bucks. Upgrade one of those 9.5s to a 10 and the card is now a 10, worth about 3500. 4 10s is a black label, and now the card is 10-20k probably, I'd have to look it up. I couldn't even tell you the difference in card characteristics of gem mt vs pristine, other than the obvious, almost perfect vs perfect.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 06-16-2019, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I don't collect many modern cards but one I follow is the 89 ud Griffey. A card with 2 9.5 sub grades and 2 10s (gem mt vs pristine) is still a 9.5 worth around 500 bucks. Upgrade one of those 9.5s to a 10 and the card is now a 10, worth about 3500. 4 10s is a black label, and now the card is 10-20k probably, I'd have to look it up. I couldn't even tell you the difference in card characteristics of gem mt vs pristine, other than the obvious, almost perfect vs perfect.

I am highly skeptical cards above a 9.5 (or I should say with subs above a 9.5) would consistently regrade if resubmitted raw. Maybe it's not purely arbitrary (or corrupt) but hard to believe it's objective and reproducible. I can't even make sense of some of the subs on 9.5 and lower cards, particularly centering on some Star BKB.

Peter_Spaeth · #8 06-16-2019, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I don't collect many modern cards but one I follow is the 89 ud Griffey. A card with 2 9.5 sub grades and 2 10s (gem mt vs pristine) is still a 9.5 worth around 500 bucks. Upgrade one of those 9.5s to a 10 and the card is now a 10, worth about 3500. 4 10s is a black label, and now the card is 10-20k probably, I'd have to look it up. I couldn't even tell you the difference in card characteristics of gem mt vs pristine, other than the obvious, almost perfect vs perfect.

So if you took a 9.5 Griffey and changed, say, an edge subgrade from a 9.5 to a 10 (seems completely arbitrary to me), that adds 3K value? SMH at that.

Bram99 · #9 06-16-2019, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A Beckett 9.5 is already GEM mint. What on earth is a 10 then?

Perhaps something like...

Triple Dog GEM MINT with all Caps?

Double Secret GEM Mint?

Peter_Spaeth · #10 06-16-2019, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bram99

Perhaps something like...

Triple Dog GEM MINT with all Caps?

Double Secret GEM Mint?

Dunno. But all kidding and TPG bashing aside, if people have cards on this list and the ones published before and the ones yet to come, don't play ostrich. There's at least a good chance they're altered considering the source. Above all, don't draw a false sense of security from the fact that BO guys have not found specific before and after pics, that doesn't mean much in this context.

Buythatcard · #11 06-16-2019, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A Beckett 9.5 is already GEM mint. What on earth is a 10 then?

Doctored!

Peter_Spaeth · #12 06-16-2019, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

Doctored!

haha

Bcwcardz · #13 06-17-2019, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A Beckett 9.5 is already GEM mint. What on earth is a 10 then?

Why stop at 10 when you can have...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

sportscardtheory · #14 06-16-2019, 01:51 PM

One thing I have yet to see mentioned is how Joe Clemons has strange cards intertwined into his BGS submissions. He got a BGS Black Label on a 2018 Topps Chrome Mookie Betts common with rough edges. Some see the grade as part of the scandal, I see it as a marker for the grader to know which submissions are Joe's. 'Mine's the submission with the Mookie Betts common.' That's how they know which one's are his so they can give him bullshit grades.

Peter_Spaeth · #15 06-16-2019, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

One thing I have yet to see mentioned is how Joe Clemons has strange cards intertwined into his BGS submissions. He got a BGS Black Label on a 2018 Topps Chrome Mookie Betts common with rough edges. Some see the grade as part of the scandal, I see it as a marker for the grader to know which submissions are Joe's. 'Mine's the submission with the Mookie Betts common.' That's how they know which one's are his so they can give him bullshit grades.

At some point I just gave up on trying to follow the twists and turns of that thread, and now they are making charges against Brian Gray of Leaf as well.

Peter_Spaeth · #16 06-16-2019, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Why is anyone surprised by this? If a card is available in a 9 and the bump from a 9 to a 10 is many multiples I would be shocked if this didn�t happen. The idiots paying the multiples for a barely discernible change are fueling this. They are getting what they should expect. It doesn�t make it right, but it is none-the-less inevitable.

Imagine the idiot who paid 125K for a PSA 10 52T Mantle back in, when was it, late 90s?

samosa4u · #17 06-16-2019, 02:42 PM

Fuddjcal · #18 06-16-2019, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Interesting that the only grading company which appears to have some evidence of crooked graders is Beckett.

that's for now. We know PSA has been crooked and have played favorites to their dealer network especially PWCC for YEARS & YEARS. Hopefully the proof will come out in our lifetime but it will definitely come out. The truth almost always wins out in the end. You know that.

oldjudge · #19 06-16-2019, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

that's for now. We know PSA has been crooked and have played favorites to their dealer network especially PWCC for YEARS & YEARS. Hopefully the proof will come out in our lifetime but it will definitely come out. The truth almost always wins out in the end. You know that.

How do we �know� if the proof has yet to come out?

Republicaninmass · #20 06-16-2019, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

How do we �know� if the proof has yet to come out?

His opinion, thought we beyond questioning opinions

oldjudge · #21 06-16-2019, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

His opinion, thought we beyond questioning opinions

I would not have questioned it if it was stated as an opinion. It was stated as a fact.

Peter_Spaeth · #22 06-16-2019, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I'd say this is the first time in a while we are in complete agreement. If I'm reading that thread completely many of the cards in question aren't even alleged to be altered, just bumped successfully at too high a rate to be considered legitimate. Well I certainly believe that's possible, and even likely, that alone is not proof.

If anything this shows how small the difference in the actual quality of the card between a 9, 9.5, 10, or black label is and how absurd the price difference is. A card in any one of those 4 holders would not look out of place in any other, most of the time.

I would be surprised if people hadn't figured out a way to exploit this. Way too much money at stake for a grader making whatever they make not to try to cash in.

I think if we had complete knowledge of these submissions we would see that many cards were altered, some were bumps (no comment at this point on any degree of corruption or favoritism), and some may be just regular cards thrown in to create the appearance of normalcy. The problem for the collector is how the hell do you figure out the story with YOUR cards. Beckett sure as hell isn't going to review them for you, and at this point who would trust them to do it anyhow?

Now some may be obvious when examined with a new and critical eye by the owner, but many may not be if this card doctor is as good as people say.

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