Conservation vs restoration defined by other genres of collectibles

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Well, this entire conversation has evolved a bit since it first started. Martin, you've done a wonderful job of deflecting the conversation away from PWCC knowingly selling altered cards and working with card doctors and to TPGs needing to do what they have proven they can't. Let's remember that this started because Brent decided he was going to play card God and change the definition of alteration. And folks on BO showing how he sells cards that get consigned back to him after they have been altered and passed through a TPG. Why? Because TPGs suck at their job of course. We all agree to that. The problem is what PWCC is doing, not that TPGs can't tell an alteration when they see one. You're constant defense of PWCC is what a lot of us don't understand and why there are so many folks here questioning your motives. You said you don't have any motives. I call BS on that statement. If you didn't have motives you wouldn't have started this thread in the wake of the other threads already rolling. I like that you have an opinion about TPGs needing to do a better job. And I can talk to you about that without throwing out insults. I'm not trying to put you down here, just trying to explain why you're getting so much backlash. Keep up your fight against the TPGs Martin. But realize what else is going on other than how they suck and we all need to mature as a hobby. Remember what started this.

Andy Huntoon

Andy, I really appreciate your feedback. If I had a motive it is to challenge the system and deliver a message to folks. Throw out ideas and let this boards knowledge serve as a think tank of sorts.

In my mind when I do a root cause analysis it comes down to the TPG.
I think most of us can agree to that. But general census is to give them a free pass because they appear too big of an entity to care about our issues.
If we live and die by the grades then the name on those slabs should take responsibility.

That's why efforts like PWCC tenets and redefining conservation vs restoration is a conversation that needs to happen at the TPG level. I don't think anyone is above it all and be the "card god". But it takes some very significant circumstances in addition to influential people to get something to happen. That is my only reason on giving PWCC the benefit of the doubt here. Maybe they can take the lead and perhaps doing something good from it.

I brought a very specific example with CGC because they have virtually removed this problem from the comic industry. I still think the solution to most of this can be accomplished if card TPG's does something similar to CGC.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Based on all that's been exposed on Blowout, and what I know and have seen and can intuit, I'll look to a different leader, thank you.

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Based on all that's been exposed on Blowout, and what I know and have seen and can intuit, I'll look to a different leader, thank you.

That's the problem Peter. Who's doing something about it? Who's leading? Some guys on Blowout?

If no one reaches out and makes progress with the TPG's and PWCC's of the world then all that investigative work is wasted time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

That's the problem Peter. Who's doing something about it? Who's leading? Some guys on Blowout?

If no one reaches out and makes progress with the TPG's and PWCC's of the world then all that investigative work is wasted time.

Not if it spurs or assists law enforcement, civil suits, etc.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Based on all that's been exposed on Blowout, and what I know and have seen and can intuit, I'll look to a different leader, thank you.

The phrase is "The fox guarding the henhouse."

[Peter_Spaeth]

The solution to pervasive fraud is not to redefine fraud. In my opinion.

[drcy]

"What kind of a topsy-turvy world do we live in, where heroes are cast as villains, brave men as cowards?"-- George Costanza from the classic Seinfeld scene

[Peter_Spaeth]

The world has gone mad today

And good's bad today,

And black's white today,

And day's night today,

Cole Porter

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The solution to pervasive fraud is not to redefine fraud. In my opinion.

Touche!

[Goudey77]

I've had several folks reach out to me here and on IG supporting my views.
It might be a quiet group but they are out there.

Have a great and safe holiday weekend everyone!

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

I've had several folks reach out to me here and on IG supporting my views.
It might be a quiet group but they are out there.

Have a great and safe holiday weekend everyone!

Not friendster or Myspace? I must be out of the loop

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

I've had several folks reach out to me here and on IG supporting my views.
It might be a quiet group but they are out there.

Have a great and safe holiday weekend everyone!

Any of them federal prosecutors or FBI agents? Guessing not.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

I've had several folks reach out to me here and on IG supporting my views.
It might be a quiet group but they are out there.

Have a great and safe holiday weekend everyone!

Say hi to Brent for us!

[RiceBondsMntna2Young]

You're talking about figuring out where the line is right? You're saying folks have different tolerances for what's acceptable when it comes to changing or preserving the condition of a card. And we should be open-minded about where the line is because building a new consensus is good for the hobby. Regardless of whether that argument is being used as a smokescreen by PWCC - and I think most feel that it is - the idea probably has merit in a vacuum.

But the most inflammatory examples are those trimmed cards. Trimmed cards aren't the "restored cards..going undetected by TPGs" you're talking about, right? You acknowledge that trimmed cards have no place in our hobby, I assume? They are not restoration. They are not conservation. Trimming destroys a card. I assume you're not drawing your line anywhere near this, but I can't tell.

And if you agree with that, do you think it's a truly productive conversation to talk about what PWCC has gotten philosophically right before we know what they got wrong? The amount of known, blatantly trimmed cards they've sold is staggering. The amount of entanglements they have with named perpetrators is staggering. We don't even reach the fuzzy line you're talking about, where conservation verges into restoration/alteration.

If you're talking about transparency and dialogue, don't you think the onus is on them first to lift the veil on the entirety of the problem before we trust them to tell everyone how it should be cleaned up? You would trust an organization that didn't "get something to happen" on this front until their very survival was threatened by an external whistleblower to lead the way to a better system?

Finally, why do you care about putting this subject to rest? The reckoning hasn't yet even happened. PWCC has said this rolling crisis is nowhere near closure, so I'm wondering why you seem to be pushing for it.

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Andy, I really appreciate your feedback. If I had a motive it is to challenge the system and deliver a message to folks. Throw out ideas and let this boards knowledge serve as a think tank of sorts.

In my mind when I do a root cause analysis it comes down to the TPG.
I think most of us can agree to that. But general census is to give them a free pass because they appear too big of an entity to care about our issues.
If we live and die by the grades then the name on those slabs should take responsibility.

That's why efforts like PWCC tenets and redefining conservation vs restoration is a conversation that needs to happen at the TPG level. I don't think anyone is above it all and be the "card god". But it takes some very significant circumstances in addition to influential people to get something to happen. That is my only reason on giving PWCC the benefit of the doubt here. Maybe they can take the lead and perhaps doing something good from it.

I brought a very specific example with CGC because they have virtually removed this problem from the comic industry. I still think the solution to most of this can be accomplished if card TPG's does something similar to CGC.

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by RiceBondsMntna2Young

You're talking about figuring out where the line is right? You're saying folks have different tolerances for what's acceptable when it comes to changing or preserving the condition of a card. And we should be open-minded about where the line is because building a new consensus is good for the hobby. Regardless of whether that argument is being used as a smokescreen by PWCC - and I think most feel that it is - the idea probably has merit in a vacuum.

But the most inflammatory examples are those trimmed cards. Trimmed cards aren't the "restored cards..going undetected by TPGs" you're talking about, right? You acknowledge that trimmed cards have no place in our hobby, I assume? They are not restoration. They are not conservation. Trimming destroys a card. I assume you're not drawing your line anywhere near this, but I can't tell.

And if you agree with that, do you think it's a truly productive conversation to talk about what PWCC has gotten philosophically right before we know what they got wrong? The amount of known, blatantly trimmed cards they've sold is staggering. The amount of entanglements they have with named perpetrators is staggering. We don't even reach the fuzzy line you're talking about, where conservation verges into restoration/alteration.

If you're talking about transparency and dialogue, don't you think the onus is on them first to lift the veil on the entirety of the problem before we trust them to tell everyone how it should be cleaned up? You would trust an organization that didn't "get something to happen" on this front until their very survival was threatened by an external whistleblower to lead the way to a better system?

Finally, why do you care about putting this subject to rest? The reckoning hasn't yet even happened. PWCC has said this rolling crisis is nowhere near closure, so I'm wondering why you seem to be pushing for it.

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I will humbly say that I have no opinion on what tolerances should be acceptable. I'm not going to be the card gatekeeper when it comes to conservation/restoration topics. I'm just a consumer like 99% of us are.

I leave this matter to the TPG's. I've seen the other threads kind of evolve over the last few days and it's refreshing to see people seeing the light that this at it's core is a problem with our TPG system and reliability.

I've said it numerous times. TPG's need to step it up and update their stance on the topic. Either do what CGC does and start a service for grading restored examples and clearly define the difference. Have a stance.

[RiceBondsMntna2Young]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I will humbly say that I have no opinion on what tolerances should be acceptable. I'm not going to be the card gatekeeper when it comes to conservation/restoration topics. I'm just a consumer like 99% of us are.

I leave this matter to the TPG's. I've seen the other threads kind of evolve over the last few days and it's refreshing to see people seeing the light that this at it's core is a problem with our TPG system and reliability.

I've said it numerous times. TPG's need to step it up and update their stance on the topic. Either do what CGC does and start a service for grading restored examples and clearly define the difference. Have a stance.

I appreciate your reply, but it’s nonsensical. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t defer to TPGs on what constitutes unacceptable alteration and then criticize them for their outdated stance. They have a stance, you just don’t agree with it.

It’s obvious that you do have an opinion about what should be tolerated. After all, you started an entire thread about it. You sketched out the contours of what you think their stance should be - PWCC’s newly articulated one, as far as I can tell.

And to take a step back, I also find it difficult to believe that you think so little of us collectors (or consumers as you put it), that we lack the agency to help set where the red line is in our own hobby. These “gatekeeper” companies exist at our pleasure, as I hope they’re all soon finding out. In fact, I thought you were calling on everyone to have an opinion and make it known so we can achieve a new, better understanding.

I find it impossible to believe that you, as a person who collects baseball cards, have absolutely no opinion on whether trimming a baseball card constitutes acceptable behavior. That seems disingenuous.

Thanks again!

[Peter_Spaeth]

DNFTT comes to mind at this point.

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by RiceBondsMntna2Young

I appreciate your reply, but it’s nonsensical. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t defer to TPGs on what constitutes unacceptable alteration and then criticize them for their outdated stance. They have a stance, you just don’t agree with it.
TPG current stance are not aligned with their actual delivered product at the moment. I think we can all agree to this
It’s obvious that you do have an opinion about what should be tolerated. After all, you started an entire thread about it. You sketched out the contours of what you think their stance should be - PWCC’s newly articulated one, as far as I can tell. I started this thread to show examples of what could be a satisfactory solution to TPG’s involvement with vetting conservation and restoring. Please see the CGC video I posted as it was alarmingly apparent that our industry TPG are dead silent and promote a very grey area when it comes to this. CGC does a wonderful job and shows their competence. Silence and inability to speak openly on policies does not help anyone if we continue to live by the slab concept.

And to take a step back, I also find it difficult to believe that you think so little of us collectors (or consumers as you put it), that we lack the agency to help set where the red line is in our own hobby. These “gatekeeper” companies exist at our pleasure, as I hope they’re all soon finding out. In fact, I thought you were calling on everyone to have an opinion and make it known so we can achieve a new, better understanding. we have no agency plain and simple. But people are quick to criticize when vocal companies like PWCC want to stir the pot and introduce change and discussion

I find it impossible to believe that you, as a person who collects baseball cards, have absolutely no opinion on whether trimming a baseball card constitutes acceptable behavior. That seems disingenuous.
At the end of the day it’s that collaboration of industry leaders who will seal that fate and make a declaration on this matter. My opinion does not matter on a message board

Thanks again!

See response in red text